Altissimo

Carl H.

Carl H.

Distinguished Member
Distinguished Member
In the regular range of the instrument I have had all my students learn and use (at least for their lessons) all of the available fingering possibilities. It has recently come to my attention, in a very humbling manner, that I have stuck to one or at the most 2 fingerings for the altissimo. Usually the one that speaks the best and maybe a fingering which is very close to a similar fingering for a neighboring note.

My current tenor is a basturd on G and G#. I can lip down a G# fingering for a passable G, but have yet to find a decent, consistent G#. For most situations this is a non issue as I don't spent too much time up there in my normal playing, but on those occasions where getting around up there is desirable, I need to pick up a different instrument, because tenor ain't happening.

I'm thinking that when the kids are older and I can hit the shed again, and return to teaching, that my approach to altissimo will be different, in that I will push for multiple fingerings there too.

What have you folks done with altissimo studies with your students? (Top tones not withstanding.)
 
Nobody wants to answer your question?

All of my sax students are in grades 6 - 8. At that stage most of them barely have a handle on fingerings, counting, and remembering to have a good reed.
I can honestly say I have NEVER had to worry about altissimo studies with any of my sax kids. Thank heavens for that.

The clarinet students are another story. Anything above top line F is so out of tune it makes my teeth itch.
 
Sorry. I played mainly bari. While *some* parts do call for altissimo on bari ... they generally don't.

I never had any real need to teach altissimo above F# to my beginning studentia, so I have no experience, here. The closest I've gotten was teaching how to play overtones ("controlled squeaking").
 
I personally feel that altissimo is the most overated and non muscially productive aspect of saxophone playing that has come along in the last 20 or so years. Players have been playing notes above the normal range of the horn for eons, but it seems to have become more popular in the last couple of decades.

Don't get me wrong, I use the altissimo range, and have coached students in it's use. But I try to confine it's use to augmenting or enhancing the musicality of what I'm doing. If I hear a line, while improvising, which is going up over the normal range of the horn, I'll play it. It's usually not that high, up to an A or B, and what I'm hearing usually brings me back down pretty quickly. So, improvisationally, I generally don't spend much time in the altissimo. But sometimes I get inspired and fire up the high register. If I'm playing the melody of a tune, a ballad, and it goes up to a high G on the last eight measures, or the last half, I might take it up to the G. Anything higher than that, I take the whole passage down an octave. The shape and integrity of the tune is more important than me showing off saxophone calisthenics.

If I'm playing something that someone has written up there, I try to make sure they really want it that high. I ask the composer if they are available. (I play a lot of original material) Many times people don't really know the range of the horn, and write the notes too high by mistake. If I can, I bring it down the octave. If they really want it up there, then I have to play it up there, and use the altissimo fingerings that I've come up with.

But my concept of style on the saxophone places musicality first, and I try to teach that. Tone, phrasing, good time and rhythm, and understanding how to deliver the melody. A good strong feel for the music. How to listen and blend with other instruments. Once a student has mastered these principles, then, and only then, will I try to teach them how to extend the range of their instrument. If it comes down to someone trying to play a high note just for the sake of playing high, I try to steer them away from that.

G# is tough on all saxophones. You have to have really hear that one.

These are just my opinions. I go for the tone. Let the trumpet players screech.
 
Update as to my G & G# issues. I received a "free" tenor some time ago. I sent it in and had some fairly serious work done to it, mostly just to get it in playable shape and for a few adjustments I like for my own comfort.

This freebie plays the way I recall tenors playing from my college daze. I have my normal range back, including those notes I battled on my main tenor all these years. It is refreshing not to have to contort myself to get some notes close enough to being usable. I didn't recall altissimo being so difficult, and now I have more sympathy with others who may be struggling with it as well. It isn't always lack of experience or conditioning which makes it difficult, sometimes it is the horn.

I still play on going the multiple fingerings route when I go more active on the teaching front in the future - and yes, only with students who are ready for it.
 
Whenever there is a rule or technique that is limiting, there will always be those who will want to be different and who will stretch the boundaries of said rules or technique. I only occasionally travel up in the high reaches on the baritone, and then only when the line calls for it to happen.

I personally don't find altissimo "screeching" in a solo to be all that appealing. But, to each his own. I know that without it, some would have very limited improvisation toolboxes.
 
Altissimo doesn't have to be screeching. I use it as an extension of my range, with the same tonal color as the rest of my range. That isn't to say I can't make it scream, but it doesn't have to be that way.
 
It is a nice effect when not overdone, just like flutter tongue and growling. Not called for much, but effective when properly used.

The Rousseau setting of Gershwins 2nd Prelude for Alto, and Piano has some lovely altissimo writing in it.
 
No, I don't consider all altissimo screeching, but that is the approach that most of the negativity of my first post is directed at. I'm trying to emphasize the good taste aspect of using this very powerful but seldom mastered element of saxophone playing. Once certain players began using altissimo on recorded pop saxophone solos, it became the norm for sax soloists in the party and wedding type bands, and, like my old football coach used to say, it was 'Katie bar the door' after that. Junior Walker had a nice round, big fat upstairs that he used to give foward momentum to his musical ideas. At least that's what I'm hearing. But other players play notes that seem to me should be left to the trumpet player, that seem to be inserted for gimmick reasons. Sorry to be bad mouthing, but I've heard enough screeching to last five lifetimes.:emoji_astonished:

I personally try to approach altissimo with the same dynamic frame of mind that I use on the other ranges of the horn, from ppp to fff. Sometime I make it, sometimes I don't.:)

No, I'm not knocking the altissimo register. I'm just saying that good taste should be used when playing and teaching it.

Carl, there's an old "Down Beat" from back in the '70's that has three sets of altissimo fingerings printed in it. One set from Rascher's "Top Tones", and two more from two of the pros of the day. If I can find it, I'll pm you, maybe it'll be of use to you.
 
sideC said:
Carl, there's an old "Down Beat" from back in the '70's that has three sets of altissimo fingerings printed in it. One set from Rascher's "Top Tones", and two more from two of the pros of the day. If I can find it, I'll pm you, maybe it'll be of use to you.
Click to expand...

That would be most gratefully received!

Other than the on-line sources, I have the top tones book - I turned my college prof on to it and the hallways were never the same in the music building - and the Ted Nash book. More info is always welcome.
 
Hi Carl. Jeez, I must have missed this post the first time around...I don't know how that happed. Considering I'm CE for this area of the board...Me bad...:oops:

I learned altissimo the 20+ years ago through the standards of the day that all teachers used...Top Tones by Rascher, & Ted Nash's Studies in High Harmonics. Then a few years ago I came across a book by Rosemary Lang. Beginning Studies in the Altissimo Register has been around since 1971, but for some reason, wasn't as widely available as either of the other 2 books.

What I like about Lang's book, is that each set of 2 pages is dedicated to a particular note. This way a student can actually gauge their progression through the altissimo range better.

As a practice tool personally, I use the book regularly to keep my dexterity up on those notes that I don't use a lot, or that might be giving me grief if I'm playing a different horn that has "issues" with a particular note.

I actually wrote a post in my blog about Lang's book last September. It might contain some additional info that you find useful.
 
I'm going to have to jump here and say something about the use of altissimo in saxophone performance. I think we always need to keep in mind what kind of music, and specifically, the band, the line-up, and the playing styles of individual players, we are talking about, when referring to the use of altissimo, or any advanced technique, in saxophone performance. I'm going to give my current playing situation as an example.

I play as the only horn in an electric blues band. The line up consists of a guitar, bass, sax, and drums, along with everyone but me doing vocals. What characterizes the band's sound, is the strong interplay between the guitar and the sax. The sax is "in your face" in this band, and not only plays the usual fills behind the vocals, but solos as much as the guitar, and duels with the guitar in a number of the songs.

In order to make the transitions between the sax and guitar, I use altissimo, overtones, or multiphonics, to set up the guitar as it comes in for its solo. Because I don't use distortion or effects pedals, I use standard saxophone effects all the time like the growl tone, flutter tongue, false fingers, etc. etc. There isn't a song out of our 100+ song list that I don't use some form of saxophone effect on, and in probably at least 25% of our repertoire, I use altissimo.

I guess I would be classified as a "screeching" altissimo player, but for the music I play, and the band I play it in, and with the players I work with, that is the appropriate way to use the notes. That has become the band's hallmark sound, and is in part, what makes Deception, Deception. People like the music we play, the arrangements we have put together, and enjoy dancing at our live performances. In the end really, that's what counts. The audience is who we perform for, and we've tweaked things in-part to where they are now, based on audience feedback.

I certainly would not, and have not, played like this in the big band, Latin band, concert band, or even in my own jazz band. Can effects be overdone: absolutely. However, in this particular setting, I make no apologies for my style of altissimo playing.
 
I learned altissimo over the summer between my senior year in high school, and my Freshman year at university. All I got from my teacher was a fingering chart, and no instruction. I knew nothing about overtones or 'voicing'.

I started out by learning front E and F. To get these notes out, you really have to do something similar to 'voicing'.

Then I played front F, and added the side Bb key. If F# didn't speak (and it didn't for awhile), I went back to front F. I did this for quite awhile, until I really had a feel for the F#.

Then I played F#, and tried the fingering for G that was the easiest to get to.

I continued this until I could play a chromatic scale From F to C. Man, was Mr. Sampen surprised when I came back from the summer with an extra octave!

Looking back on it, however, I would have been better off spending that time on scales and arpeggios.
 
I found the Robert Luckey book very helpful in working out alternative fingerings. He dedicates a section of the book to soprano, alto, tenor & bari, with at least two (and sometimes many more) fingerings for each note.

Despite what Rascher & Nash say about the same fingerings working across the board, IMO there are significant differences between alto & tenor. I haven't even gotten to the bari section, because I don't really feel the need, and altissimo on soprano just seems absurd to me!

Here's a link:
http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SA&Category_Code=
 
I had little interest in altissimo for a long time. Then last year sometime I got a Jimmy Forrest tenor CD that included "Yesterdays." He plays it in the original key, D minor concert, and plays the second chorus in the upper register. Which calls for G3 held for a measure followed by F#3 for another measure. He plays both notes strongly and with vibrato. That recording made me want to do that. Like Mt. Everest, only because it's there.

I'm still working on it. One of my tenors, a Barone, has both F#3 and G3 keys. But I want to play the tune on the Mark VI, which has neither.

It's difficult, even on the Barone. I wonder if a harder reed (I play a 2.5) would help me get there.
 
In a general way of speaking, I've always heard that a softer reed helps with altissimo.

As far as using altissimo, I could always co-opt a famous quote and say, "2-and-1/2 octaves is enough for anyone!"

IIRC, the alto solo for Tank, which SOTSDO recently sent me sheet music for (as recorded on the CD), is really quite kewl and goes up to altissimo A. It sounds good like that. I've heard other versions of that solo that don't go as high and the solo sounds ... OK, but just doesn't have as much energy.

Again, with bari sax, I don't have much need for altissimo except for one or two notes in Gospel John and that's it. Lower range would be more helpful.

Another way of looking at it is that the saxophone doesn't have a large enough range. Seriously. Look at it in comparison to a Bb clarinet: a clarinet stretches as low as an Eb alto, but can go much higher. And, for me, at least, it's easier to play altissimo on clarinet.

Now, that'd be interesting: a clarinet that sounds like a sax ....
 
Al Stevens said:
I'm still working on it. One of my tenors, a Barone, has both F#3 and G3 keys. But I want to play the tune on the Mark VI, which has neither.

It's difficult, even on the Barone. I wonder if a harder reed (I play a 2.5) would help me get there.
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I find on my Mark VI, that my 2.5 reed when it's too worn in (I play Fibracells BTW) won't work for altissimo anymore. Especially for F#3, G3, etc. Those are the toughest altissimo notes to get to speak clearly at the best of times.

You might try a 3 just to see what happens. IIRC, your VI is very close to mine in vintage. Mine is from circa 1972 198xxx. It too has no F# key, so I use front E3, & F3 to set up my lower altissimo notes. I always use a slightly harder (less worn in) reed for shows, and keep my really well worn in, comfortable, easy blowing reeds for rehearsals until they're completely dead.

FWIW, I tend to cycle my Fibracells the same way I used to cycle my cane reeds. I don't know if it makes a difference to their longevity, but I've generally been able to play a pack of 4 reeds for about a year...And that's when I was playing nearly 5 nights a week. Now that I'm playing less, they are lasting longer.
 
pete said:
In a general way of speaking, I've always heard that a softer reed helps with altissimo.

As far as using altissimo, I could always co-opt a famous quote and say, "2-and-1/2 octaves is enough for anyone!"
Click to expand...

Hmmm ... softer reed eh? ... I'll have to give it a whirl. I play on rigotti 4 1/2 light. Maybe going down a strength will get my G going.

Haha "2-and-1/2 octaves is enough for anyone!" I wish! I have a tune in my one ensemble that I have to play to a high G or A doubling the melody with ye ol' flug.
 
WoodwindDoubler said:
Hmmm ... softer reed eh? ... I'll have to give it a whirl. I play on rigotti 4 1/2 light. Maybe going down a strength will get my G going.

Haha "2-and-1/2 octaves is enough for anyone!" I wish! I have a tune in my one ensemble that I have to play to a high G or A doubling the melody with ye ol' flug.
Click to expand...
Allegedly, good human vocalists have a two octave range -- that's what I've heard, at least. (I must be freak-boy, because my range is larger than that.)

That could be one of the reasons why good ol' Sax didn't try to make a horn with a larger range.

FWIW, I would prefer if all the Eb saxophones stretched from low A to altissimo A, just to complete that octave range (and because it's concert C to concert C). Getting the keywork to the low range is easy. Getting it higher is problematical because of intonation issues -- and I think you'd have toneholes on the neck.
 
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