Any experience with an INDIANA bari ?

Hi, bari lovers,

I'm presently playing a very nice New Wonder II (the "Chubari") which I like a lot but the sound of which is a bit light for me on the long run. I'm on the hunt for a bigger, punchier sound and have been offered an Indiana bari which apparently fullfills these expectations. Not tried it yet.
Has anyone experiences to share on such a sax ? I'm also interested in knowing your opinion of the "student to intermediate" market niche these Indiana were supposed to cover. Any drawback ? According to my experience with great Conn stencils which were also designated as "student" horns, I'm rather optimistic.
Thanks in advance
J
 
Jacques, did you try optimizing the mouthpiece before you decided to get another horn? If the sound is the only limiting factor then a matched mouthpiece can make all the difference in the world. It be a shame to get rid of an instrument because all your options haven't been explored. And that's an expensive way to go too.

If there are other factors like ergos, weight, potential high-cost maintenance in the near future, or that it's just plain ugly, then by all means move on. Good luck.
 
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I like the sound of the New Wonder II. If you want something punchier you might consider trying a different mouthpiece first. It's a cheaper option than a different horn.

I haven't played an Indiana bari so I can't comment specifically on that horn.
 
Indiana bari

Ed and Gandalfe,
Thanks for the advice and don't worry: I'll have the opportunity to check out both baris side by side before deciding to go ahead with the Martin. You're right, the NW II has a very nice sound altogether - Mulligan would not have objected; he played a lot on one of these - and, according to my tastes, the end result improved quite a bit with the two recent mpc changes; first a HR Berg which delivered a fantastic "Brignolesque" sound but, because of its relatively small chamber, generated severe intonation problems; second with a Strathon which is the nearest of what I've been longing for.
I'll keep you posted about the outcome.
In between, any experience shared by anyone of the very educated bunch of Woodwinders will be appreciated.
All the best
J
 
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If you have absolutely no clue how to properly dispose of a bari, I'd have an idea or two... ;-)
 
FWIW, "Indiana Bari" might not necessarily have much meaning. When I hear "Indiana", I think of the student model from Martin from the 60's -- and I don't think Martin made this model in a bari. However, I also know that Martin made an Indiana model much earlier -- from Indiana Band Instruments -- that was a stencil of the Handcraft Standard, IIRC. It did have the engraving "Indiana".

Or it might be a horn FROM Indiana Band Instruments before they were bought by Martin.

One of those, "This thread is useless without pics!" threads :).

Oh. Sorry. I'll try to address the "student" moniker if I have time. I'm waiting for a turkey, at current.
 
Indiana, Martin and Co

FWIW, "Indiana Bari" might not necessarily have much meaning. When I hear "Indiana", I think of the student model from Martin from the 60's -- and I don't think Martin made this model in a bari. However, I also know that Martin made an Indiana model much earlier -- from Indiana Band Instruments -- that was a stencil of the Handcraft Standard, IIRC. It did have the engraving "Indiana".

Or it might be a horn FROM Indiana Band Instruments before they were bought by Martin.

One of those, "This thread is useless without pics!" threads :).

Oh. Sorry. I'll try to address the "student" moniker if I have time. I'm waiting for a turkey, at current.

Don't let your turkey get cold. The Martin/Indiana question should be cleared this week-end if everything runs smoothly. Shall keep you posted and might add a pic or two.

J
 
The Quickie Bit About Student, Second-Line and Stencil Horns

I wrote an article on this for SOTW some time ago, but I'll post some highlights.

1. A "stencil" is a saxophone built by a "major" instrument manufacturer for another manufacturer, dealer or storefront. This horn is produced without engraving. The dealer (etc.) then takes a stencil and uses it to engrave something on the bell.

* European and Japanese stencils are generally EXACTLY like the pro/intermediate horns they are stenciled from, except for the engraving: for instance, a King Marigaux is exactly the same as a SML Gold Medal around the same serial number. A Vito stamped "Made in Japan" is the same as a Yamaha 23. (In general terms, of course. Some King Marigaux horns have altissimo F# keys and the Yamaha Vitos have different lacquer.)

* American-made stencils usually are missing some features from the model they are stenciled from: for instance, A Selmer NY Conn stencil has the same bore and keywork as a Conn New Wonder made around the same time (usually), but does not have the New Wonder's rolled toneholes and has a different series of serial numbers. Additionally, many American-made stencils are lower quality than the horns they were stenciled from: for instance, any Conn stencil engraved "Cavalier" is generally junk and you should run away, screaming. The Selmer NY horns are generally extremely good.

2. A "second-line" horn is generally a US-made horn produced at a different factory, usually made differently than the professional model. For instance, a Conn Pan American generally has a completely different patent stamped on the horn than a Conn New Wonder and it was made with different tooling. The Pan American isn't a "New Wonder, Jr.", it's a completely different horn and has its own series of serial numbers.

3. "Student models" are also completely different. They are generally made with a different bore, cheaper tooling, cheaper materials, etc. than professional horns. That's not to say that there aren't excellent student horns out there (Yamaha 23), but that they're just not in the same class as professional horns from the same company. In other words, DON'T compare a Yamaha 23 to a Conn New Wonder (which might disappoint New Wonder owners), compare a Yamaha 23 to a Yamaha 62.

===================

Some Interesting Exceptions/Notes

SML, being SML, also did something that I've not seen repeated with any other manufacturer: they'd come out with a new model professional horn -- say, the Gold Medal -- and would continue to sell their old professional model (the "Rev. D", using my Gold Medal example) under a different name, "Standard", probably until they ran out of fully assembled horns that used the old tooling.

Holton also did something unusual: in the late 1930's and 1940's, they produced some horns for Gretsch. These horns are reportedly considerably better than any other Holton models and are favorably compared to Conn Artist/Standard ("Naked Lady") horns, rather than other Holtons.

In the 1920's, Holton (and later, Martin) also produced a horn designed for Lyon and Healy: the Perfect Curved Soprano, generally sold under the Lyon and Healy Name of "American Professional". I can't say if Holton "designed" the instrument or if L&H did, but it's a) rare, b) expensive, and c) unplayable. (The Perfect Curved soprano is possibly the only saxophone that really is junk that's valuable.)

Martin later went on to design the Olds Super horns, which were terribly unlike any other Martin-made instruments and are extremely good players, from what I'm told. Allegedly, these were all military-issue instruments.
 
Indiana

First, thanks to you all for your contribution, thanks to Pete for his remainder.
In between, I took delivery of the suspect.
It definitely looks like being a pre-Martin Indiana: keyworks "a la" 20's, no front high F and this engraving (from up to down): INDIANA / INDIANA BAND INST / CO / ELKHARDT IND / U.S.A..
The sound is really huge but intonation goes all over the place, even with an old STM the chamber of which is supposed, I think, to be rather large.
The solution might be a Greiffenhagen-modified large chamber mpc, of the type I used to play on but that I sold because it delivered a too "Mulliganesque" sound for my liking. I'll explore different options with the seller, which is a high level tech and an extremely knowledgeable specialist in vintages and keep you informed. Some pics to follow one of thes days.
J
 
Yes, I own and play one of these IBICo baris (yes, a Handcraft "troubadour" stencil/copy/second line/whatever). Many thoughts.....

1. Yes, a Grieffenhagen double-chamber was my solution to the intonation problems. And it did work. I had him use a V5 B75 and maintain the .105 tip. The modification is very cool, and the mouthpiece is great. No more tuning problems.

2. BUT, I also (later) learned that these really like a slight-lower-than-average key height. By setting the key heights down a bit, I didn't sacrifice much of the huge sound, but brought the tuning somewhat more under control. I even got it to play nicely in tune with a standard STM link. Don't be afraid, with these horns, to bring the key heights down a bit lower than you think wise, typically.

E-mail me with any questions about these horns -- erik indy (all together) at gmail dot com
 
IBICo Bari, latest news.

Here's a little update about this great bari.

After lengthy consideration of the sketchy intonation vs. great, huge sound dilemma, I decided the latter was the more important and that I should find a way or another to cope with the intonation problem. I thus bought the Indiana Band Instrument Co, sold back the BariChu and never regret it.

With the help of a SOTW member, I traced the serial number (on "themartinhistory.net") back to 1936, later than I thought.

With Bruno Waltersbacher, the seller and outstanding tech, we started to tackle the intonation problem. First step was to put "half-moon" cork inserts (in fact less than half moons) into 2 holes of the RH stack. Slight improvement in linearity. Then, Walter offered to lengthen the neck; I knew this cylindrical appendix was anathema to a clean sound production but I had experienced it with the Conn without many problems so there we went. Now, the whole range was better positioned but new non-linear problems occurred, that I was able to correct without undue difficulties. However, for right 440 Hz operation, my HR Berg was still positioned at the end of the neck, so far that it sometimes fell at the end of a specially fierce solo.

It's at this point that I decided to give MartinMods a try with his extenders (see his album on this site): these extend the shank, leaving the conical length and taper as they were. I precisely measured all the relevant dimensions of my Berg and Lance quickly came out with a perfectly adjusted contraption. It was time for me to saw the original neck extension... with no easy way to turn back; I did it progressively, leaving a small section, just in case the extension were too short... what is was, forcing me not to push the mpc fully into the extension. This was forecasted and I'm awaiting fine tuning rings Lance sent me a few days ago. I'll thus shall be able to saw the remaining 5 mm of extension still left on the neck.

The almost-final result is really excellent: even if some minor tone corrections remain necessary, as in most saxes, the basic old bari - smaller chamber mpc love-hate problem can be considered as solved. A second extension is on its way for my STM Link.

As you may know, I do prefer sounds in the Brignola-Cuber dpt than in the Mulligan. That's why I found my present grail both in Strathon and HR Bergs mpc. The Strathon doesn't seem to be easily treated the MartinMods way and I'll certainly have to sell it. Besides, earlier in my quest, I had asked Erik Greifenhagen if he would accept to design a brighter version of his double-chamber Vandoren-modified mpc. He did it with pleasure even if he added this kind of sound was not his favorite cup of tea. The end-result is fascinating, with a wider, a bit darker, version of the "modern" sound I was longing for, with reminiscences of a more classic sound. Since the Berg + extension is spot on what I love, I'll also have to sell this mpc, to help pay for the other develpments I mentioned earlier... Drop me a line if one of you were interested before I launch a more formal selling procedure.

You'll find annexed a couple of pics of the IBICo.

Great experiences !

J
 
I'm intrigued by the fact that the shank extender worked....... I may have to talk to Lance about one for one of the mouthpiece I've got saved up that I can't use right now.....

Otherwise, your IBICo bari looks EXACTLY like mine, except for the fact that yours is actually attractive. My old bari was lacquered, has lost 95% of it, and generally looks "like a muffler" these days, according to Mrs. MyMartinTenor.
 
IBICo Bari, last latest news.

... to tell I received some fine tuning adjustment rings from MartinMods and dared to saw the remaining 5mm of the old extension cylinder welded to the original neck of the bari. Suspense... and there it goes, almost perfectly in tune all over the range. The sound is definitely fuller (warning: subjective impression...) though keeping the aggressiveness of the Berg.

In a word, excellent operation for a very decent price (ca $ 85.-). Is this THE solution for rejuvenating these old baris ? It might well be.

J
 
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