Bass saxophones & setups

[Helen]

I officially give up on the Onyx. The more I play it, the worse it gets. I'm glad it works for you @Helen, but it's not even in the same ballpark as my cane reeds or even the Legere contrabass clarinet I had tried a while back. It's a shame because I'd really hoped it would work. I am glad I tried it and thank you for sharing your experience.

Strength matter A LOT on bass. What you are describing sounds like the reed is too soft. If you haven't yet opened the other Hartmann reeds, I would say see about exchanging them for harder ones. See how those work for you.

As far as the "springiness" goes, I don't find to be the case. Again, it could be softness issue.

That said, some people simply prefer cane.

 

[BarrySachs]

Strength matter A LOT on bass. What you are describing sounds like the reed is too soft. If you haven't yet opened the other Hartmann reeds, I would say see about exchanging them for harder ones. See how those work for you.

As far as the "springiness" goes, I don't find to be the case. Again, it could be softness issue.

That said, some people simply prefer cane.

Thanks. It's definitely too soft. But I've felt that same unnatural springiness in every synthetic I've ever tried over the past 40 years. It's the reason I dislike the sound, feel and response of all synthetic reeds. A harder one wouldn't overcome that fundamental issue. To describe it more precisely, it feels like the elasticity is higher and the spring constant is lower in synthetic materials than in cane.

In my experience, Legere has come the closest to making a good synthetic reed. In any case, I'm still hoping modern technology will come through someday.

 

[Helen]

I agree Legere makes great synthetics. I use the Signatures Series for my SA& T saxes, as well as bass clarinet. For my Bb clarinet I use European Cut. However, I am not a fan of their bari sax reeds. That's why I switched to Harry's Fiberreed. It works like a charm on my Couf. Gives me the sound I want when combined with the Theo Wanne Durga 3 MP I use, and is incredibly flexible. But... Finding the right strength is the issue.

I used to use the original Fibracell reeds on bass. Sadly they all finally wore out, and the "new" ones--anything produced over the past 12 or so years--are all sh*t in my estimation. They sound horrible, and the delaminate in no time. They also no longer have the staying-power they used to.

That's how I ended up switching to the Hartmann reeds on bass. I was desperate to try a reed that actually wasn't worn out for my new Couf bass, so I grabbed one of my bari reeds. Worked fantastically on the JK-made horn.

I am one of these players who likes their reeds to be consistent from reed to reed, and to play effortlessly from the get. That's why I use synthetics. Players I work with are always surprised to find out I don't use cane reeds. It doesn't effect the sound out front, but may effect what we as players hear--at first.

They certainly respond differently, and I get what you say about the sponginess. The carbon onyx is not nearly as stiff as a cane reed is, but that is what I use to create a lot of the tonal expressions when I play. In other words, I use (insert synthetic reed of choice name here) to customize the sound and effects I get from my various horns.

By far and away most players I know are cane purists. I get that. I think I spent too many years playing in rock and electric blues bands opposite the lead guitar player where I blended my sound to theirs to the point where you couldn't tell where the guitar solo ended, and where the sax solo started. These 20+ years of working like that still effect how I use the tools in my toolbox today.

Although my sound is vastly different in a 19-piece swing band than it was in a 5 piece rock band, I still dip into what is comfortable for me, and what gets me the results I need.

 

[scottmartin]

I agree Legere makes great synthetics. I use the Signatures Series for my SA& T saxes, as well as bass clarinet. For my Bb clarinet I use European Cut. However, I am not a fan of their bari sax reeds. That's why I switched to Harry's Fiberreed. It works like a charm on my Couf. Gives me the sound I want when combined with the Theo Wanne Durga 3 MP I use, and is incredibly flexible. But... Finding the right strength is the issue.

I used to use the original Fibracell reeds on bass. Sadly they all finally wore out, and the "new" ones--anything produced over the past 12 or so years--are all sh*t in my estimation. They sound horrible, and the delaminate in no time. They also no longer have the staying-power they used to.

That's how I ended up switching to the Hartmann reeds on bass. I was desperate to try a reed that actually wasn't worn out for my new Couf bass, so I grabbed one of my bari reeds. Worked fantastically on the JK-made horn.

I am one of these players who likes their reeds to be consistent from reed to reed, and to play effortlessly from the get. That's why I use synthetics. Players I work with are always surprised to find out I don't use cane reeds. It doesn't effect the sound out front, but may effect what we as players hear--at first.

They certainly respond differently, and I get what you say about the sponginess. The carbon onyx is not nearly as stiff as a cane reed is, but that is what I use to create a lot of the tonal expressions when I play. In other words, I use (insert synthetic reed of choice name here) to customize the sound and effects I get from my various horns.

By far and away most players I know are cane purists sax players for hire. I get that. I think I spent too many years playing in rock and electric blues bands opposite the lead guitar player where I blended my sound to theirs to the point where you couldn't tell where the guitar solo ended, and where the sax solo started. These 20+ years of working like that still effect how I use the tools in my toolbox today.

Although my sound is vastly different in a 19-piece swing band than it was in a 5 piece rock band, I still dip into what is comfortable for me, and what gets me the results I need.

I am playing the tenor saxophone, and for the moment that takes up all of my available time.
But the mind wanders off to the future.....
I'm thinking of expanding my "stable" of saxophones (now consisting of 1 tenor sax and one Jsax). First I was thinking about a Baritone sax, but lately I have been thinking that a bass sax would be more appropriate.
I like the low sound of most bass-instruments, so alto and soprano have no appeal to me. And I was thinking that a Baritone is only half an octave below the tenor sax. That would not expand the range of my instrumental reach by much. A bass sax seems more like what I would like then.
But of course, the budget needed to extend my stable would also have to expand it seems

 

[BarrySachs]

While bass sax has an amazing, deep tone that bari cannot match, it only extends 4 semi-tones lower than a low A bari. There is also virtually no music written for bass. So your opportunities to play it in any reading band are very limited. I personally love my bass and play it frequently in my dixieland band. But that's one of the the few applications that comes to mind. Do let us know how you're using it, if you get one.

 

[Helen]

I am playing the tenor saxophone, and for the moment that takes up all of my available time.
But the mind wanders off to the future.....
I'm thinking of expanding my "stable" of saxophones (now consisting of 1 tenor sax and one Jsax). First I was thinking about a Baritone sax, but lately I have been thinking that a bass sax would be more appropriate.
I like the low sound of most bass-instruments, so alto and soprano have no appeal to me. And I was thinking that a Baritone is only half an octave below the tenor sax. That would not expand the range of my instrumental reach by much. A bass sax seems more like what I would like then.
But of course, the budget needed to extend my stable would also have to expand it seems

Bari and bass are incredibly different. Eb vs Bb notwithstanding, they are about as different as soprano and tenor. The haunting sounds of bari sax you get C3 and through the palm keys is the most beautiful sound in the world. IMHO of course.

Sure some baris play to low A, but my low Bb baris are where it is at for me. My Mark VI and Martin Committee III are rock stars. Each of them sounds incredibly different from each other. Depending on what I'm doing, and what sound I need, I pick the appropriate bari for the job. My go-to bari for everyday is indeed a low A horn. My Couf Superba II rattles the windows when I need it to, or can pretend to be semi-sweet. But its nature just makes it a raunchier horn by nature.

The nice thing about baris is that they can be HEARD above the fray, and can PROJECT well when compared to bass saxophones.

Which brings us to my beloved bass. I love, love, love my Couf Superba I bass. It kicks ass. I can use any MP I want, and it works. However, like the Buescher I had before it, and like the Jinbao-made Selmer knock-off I play weekly in a sax ensemble, the JK bass simply is not able to project as well as a bari. It is much harder to punch through the "noise" and be heard. Read: takes A LOT more air to get the volume you need in a loud environment.

So both bari and bass have their +s and -s. It really comes down to where you plan to play your horn, and what style of music you want to play.

Here's a pro/con list to help get you started

Pro/Con	Bari	Bass	Notes
Pro	Included in standard band instrumentation		concert, jazz, etc bands
Con		Not included most standard instrumentation
Pro		Create your own opportunities	if you have one, you have to be creative to find places to play it
Con	Expensive compared to smaller horns	Even more expensive than bari	All accessory gear costs more as well
Con		Vintage horns are harder to play b/c they lack many features of modern ones. It it not as simple as picking up a bass and playing it.	Playing a vintage bass is like playing a different instrument all together. Think of it as its own instrument. Get out of saxophone headspace, and into bass headspace. It's the only way to become a true bass player.
Con		Asian-made modern horns are junk. Some are better made than others, but are still junk. They are certainly not pro horn level horns.	People have to ask themselves if that matters to them. Vintage American-style ones are no longer available new for a reason. The short wrap horns vary in price greatly. People need to do their research. I find the one I play for 2 hours a week to be quite uncomfortable.
Con	Heavy compared to smaller horns. Low A adds quite a bit of extra weight.	Even heavier than a bari.	There are some logistical issues around these horns. How big they are. Do you wear it on a harness? Which harness? Do you use a peg? A stand? etc. etc. All these bits of gear add up in price.
Pro		When played well, the sound is simply sublime.	It takes time to find the right MP/reed setup. Fortunately there are now enough bass sax player groups with players who can lend a hand in your quest.
Pro	When played well, their tone is hauntingly beautiful in the upper range.		It takes time to become a real bari player, and not play it like an alto or tenor player doubling on bari. Once you master the horn, become a true bari player, and develop your tonal concept, the tone is more pleasing to the listening ear--IMO--than a bass.
Con		It is hard to achieve a nice tone on the lower end that is pleasing to the ear. Things start to get "muddied" at the lower end of the horn.	This is especially true if the horn you have is rich in natural overtones, and/or the MP/reed combo brings out a lot of overtones.
Con		Few manufacturers make new saxophones. Due to the rise in the popularity of bass saxes this has driven up the $$ of vintage ones.	New horns are currently made by: Keilwerth, Selmer, J'Elle Stainer, Eppelsheim, & Jinbao (under a boatload of stencil names).
Pro		Vintage and short wrap bass saxophones are capable of the same sonorous tone. MP/reed combo are everything.	It isn't uncommon to read things like: "Selmer-style (short wrap) bass saxes sound like big baris." This is not my experience at all. To get the same big, bass tone though, I do have to change my MP & reed set up.
Pro	Transposing from bass clef very easy		This is handy when reading things like tuba or bassoon parts
Con		Transposing from bass clef not that simple	While there is a shortcut to read bass cleft as an Eb instrument, there is no such shortcut for Bb ones, which makes on-the-fly transposition of tuba or other bass clef parts more complicated
Pro		The rise of popularity of bass saxophones over the past 20 years has created more of everything for players	Horns, accessories, resources, gear swap possibilities, etc, etc.

I am going to add to this chart later today or tomorrow. It's practice time now.

This thread has inspired me to take my bass out and try out my new reeds I got just before Christmas.

While bass sax has an amazing, deep tone that bari cannot match, it only extends 4 semi-tones lower than a low A bari. There is also virtually no music written for bass. So your opportunities to play it in any reading band are very limited. I personally love my bass and play it frequently in my dixieland band. But that's one of the the few applications that comes to mind. Do let us know how you're using it, if you get one.

Thank you. Nailed it.