DeVilliers Tenor Sax

Helen

Helen

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I stopped in at a music store yesterday, and happened to notice a vintage tenor on the wall. The brand name was DeVilliers. It was marked at being made in Western Germany. It had a honey gold lacquer, probably original. There was a bit of a mix in the pad department, but about 75% of them where red (original?). The ones that weren't red, were the traditional brown leather pads. Resos were of the small, metal rivet variety throughout the horn. The sax had rolled tone holes. The screw that holds the neck to the body, is the same kind that Hammerschmidt uses. It looks like this one, that is on my alto. The sax is quite heavy, and although I didn't give it a play-test (no mouthpiece with me, nor enough time) it certainly had the feel of a pro horn. There were a couple of dents in the body tube, and one of the posts had taken a hit. So a bit of dent work would be necessary. Also, the palm key pads needed replacing, as did a couple of others. However, it was a rather interesting sax.

My first thoughts were that it might be a Keilwerth stencil. The only references for DeVillers I've found all refer back to or quote the Just Saxes page on stencils. There it says:

Roxy*
De Villier*
Corvair*

* Possibly made by Dörfler and Jörka, ex-Keilwerth employees producing horns also in Nauheim, circa 1950-1968? There are several stencil lines whose keywork and hardware are indentical to that used by Keilwerth over various production periods, but which may have been made by D and J. These horns play very similarly to Keilwerths of the same period, with a very similar voice. The major evident difference between the horn that seem to be by D and J is in the taper of the neck, and its acoustical dimensions; despite a much smaller neckpipe opening, for e.g., the [putatively] D and J horns play with a very Keilwerth resonance & "smoky," tangy character. Thanks to Stephan Boesken for posting info on Dörfler and Jörka to the web.
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I was wondering...Anyone here know anything more? Perhaps more definitive.

Too bad the store wants $399 for the sax. In its current condition, I wouldn't pay that. I'm also not really looking for another tenor, but I'll likely go in next week & take a mouthpiece with me to try it out, just for fun. I'm curious to see how bad it really plays.
 
The Dorfler & Jurka saxophones I have seen have Keilwerth bodies and, well, look like Keilwerths with (generally) overbuilt keywork.

I suppose it's possible that there are D&J horns that were completely made by D&J and/or D&J stenciled from other manufacturers, I just haven't seen that. I did see the eBay ad of someone selling a Voss (D&J horn) and he insisted that Keilwerth sued D&J for trying to compete with them using their own horns (this doesn't jibe with my research that says Keilwerth bought D&J, but I'm being complete).

Keilwerth purchased D&J, IIRC.

Check out these rather nice comparison pics between a Rene Dumont D&J stencil and a Keilwerth New King stencil (Bundy Special): http://doctorsax.biz/comp_dj_vs_jk.htm. You can see the more obvious differences in keywork on http://www.doctorsax.biz/musical instruments/saxophones/dorflerandjurka/comp_DJ_vs_JK/pict02.JPG

I'm not 100% sure if they can realistically say that the neck taper is different. It's possible that D&J used different necks that they customized, etc. I suppose you'd have to measure the entire taper, including the neck's, not just the tenon diameter.
 
I guess I should have started this post with: Pete, what do you know about... :emoji_relaxed: You know everything...Or at least almost everything... But don't let that go to your head...

The DeVillers I saw is a dead ringer for the Dörfler & Jörka (D&J) Renee Dumont in those pictures. The pearls on the keyguards, the keyguards themselves, and the metal pant guard on the other side, are identical, (as is the previously mentioned round screw for the neck). The key shapes over the whole horn (at least the ones in the pictures) are the same as well. The DeVillers doesn't have nickle-plated keys though. It is all lacquered.
 
No, I don't know everything: I know a lot about some things :).

Some people may not be aware, but the "two-tone" finish of lacquer body and nickel-plated keywork was generally a step-up finish and was an advertising point. All lacquer was the "base" finish of most horns in the 50's/60's.

Tabling the question of whether the D&J is made by them or Keilwerth, I did own a Bundy bari made by Keilwerth for a long while -- identical to the Bundy Special, but minus the rolled tone holes.

Killer horn, low price. Yes, my Yamaha 52 was easier to play, control and intonation wise (plus the YBS-52 has a low A), but the tone was very, very nice on yhat Bundy -- and I tend to bid on any Bundy/Bundy Specials I see for sale at a low price.

So, considering the D&J is very close to the Bundy Special, I'd probably give it a toot.
 
I never particularly liked the "two-tone" finish with the light gold & nickle silver keys, but you're right, it was a step up & all the rage when it came out..."the new thing", til you put one up against a new Mark VI....then it looked cheap, but then what wouldn't have back then? Fortunately I didn't have to worry about either at the time, lol, having started in 1959 on an old relacquered Hoton tenor at age 11.
 
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yeah, I know Selmer had it, but as you said, it was rare, and I have seen very, very few Selmer horns with that....that link would be nice though.
 
I know I've seen photos of 2 tone Selmer Paris horns before, but every time I do, I always think to myself...Self, these don't look like Selmer Paris horns. :) To me, Mark VIs were either gold or silver, not both...Although Groovekiller seems to have a red one, so now I'll have to go off and ponder the meaning of life, the universe, and how exactly Cadbury did get the caramel into the Caramilk bar. :-D
 
I also like the Mark VIs with silver body and gold highlights. I should link a few of those pics, too.

There are also the limited amount of colored lacquers. I wanna see a factory red one.
 
pete said:
There are also the limited amount of colored lacquers. I wanna see a factory red one.
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I know that Ornette Coleman had a white one that he had custom done from Selmer. I also remember seeing a blue one on eBay a few years ago that the seller "claimed" was factory original. I don't remember how credible that claim was however, but I remember not being 100% convinced...But heh, I'm a sceptic when it comes to most things people say on-line...especially on eBay ads regarding Mark VIs. :emoji_relaxed: Red...Mmm...Me thinks that would be a bit of a stretch. But heh, you never know. I'm sure Selmer could tell us though. They keep excellent records! ;-)
 
Silver body, gold keys bari. Upon reflection, this may be aftermarket, tho.

Grumps' black-lacquer soprano and sopranino. The owner has the original documentation.

Teh colored lacquer isn't quite as nice as the Conn and Buescher (yes, this is Groovekiller's horn) horns that were available in enamel, in the 1920's, but they're still interesting.

I did read a Selmer Mark VI ad/catalog awhile back and it listed, IIRC, black, white, red and maybe blue as lacquer choices. A lot of other interesting custom things are out there, like nickel plate or gold plate.
 
It's interesting colored VIs don't show up in these auctions and dealer sales that happen all the time. The blue one from a few years ago I remember for a couple of reasons. The first of course being that it was unusual. The second was that the lacquer job didn't strike me as all that good looking. Looking at the factory black job you linked to, it is very clear now, that the blue lacquer job didn't look as good as that.

I wonder how many colored VIs Selmer produced. There can't have been many of them. Seeing a red one would definitely be interesting.

Although not a Selmer, my favorite horn color of all time, was Steve Goodson's purple bari that I had a chance to see and play when I was in New Orleans. That is a great horn color. If I was to get a horn custom-colored, that shade of purple would be my choice.
 
Funny thing happened today, I found myself going to the music store, and play testing the De Villiers. Next thing you know, it's in the car riding home with me. :emoji_rage:

I have it for 30 days, during which time I can return it if I want. No questions asked... Which I might do, if I can't find a mouthpiece in my collection that will make it play in tune. It does not like my Dukoff. I have to push it in so far, that the horn is out of tune with itself. Same for my metal Berg. It seems to be OK with my vintage Wolf Tayne however, but I've only just started trying out pieces.

The horn also leaks quite badly in the lower stack. The store's repair center in Vancouver will fix it under warranty for me. I have 90 days for that. I will have to get them to check key heights as well. (I'm sure they hate pro players who buy horns, and are picky about their gear.)

As far as tone goes, it is not at all like my Mark VI, Martin Handcraft, or 10M, which is why I decided to take it home to see how I would like it. It does have a smokey, jazz sound. Quite different from the rest of my horns.

I'll post a few pics in a day or so. It's an odd looking horn. I'm not familiar with Keilwerth's, either vintage or new, so perhaps someone here will have some insight into this beastie's pedigree.

BTW, does anyone have any experience with vintage Keilwerth's and mouthpiece choices? Are they finicky about mouthpieces? Who knows, maybe it's not a Keilwerth... BTW, it is marked, Made in Western Germany.
 
My Hohner - Max Kw. - is a 54 and plays quite nicely with a Dukoff D9, Berg 100/0 and a Strathon 5. Intonation is not an issue, but an awesomely dark tone is a bit of an issue for playing in a big band - thus the bright pieces I have gravitated to for this horn.
 
I took some photos of the sax, and put them in an album. Perhaps someone here recognizes it.

As I mentioned way back in an earlier post in this thread, the horn bears a striking resemblance to the Dörfler & Jörka (D&J) Renee Dumont that Pete provided the link to from http://doctorsax.biz/comp_dj_vs_jk.htm.

I don't know what it is about me and obscure saxes. If there's one within 100 miles, it seems to find me... Or I it perhaps... ;-)
 
Yup, nothing subtle about the differences. They are very noticeable. I'll take a couple photos this weekend lining up the various tenor necks I have, and post them in an album.
 
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