Hohner President

Helen

Helen

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For quite some time now I've been wanting to get a vintage J. Keilwerth. I've been waffling between a Tone King and a New King for a while. Last weekend I nearly ordered one from Gerard Julius Keilwerth's shop in Germany. He currently has 3 lovelies there. As I was agonizing which of the saxes to choose, another opportunity presented itself, that was just too interesting to let slip by.

I was contacted about a Max Keilwerth-made, Hohner President, tenor sax that was available. This closet horn was from 1961 (serial 104XX). It's lacquer with nickel plated keys. It is pretty much in mint condition. All the original accessory parts that came with the sax--end plug, mouthpiece, lig, cap, cleaning swab, and case--are still present. It still has its original pads (no resos) which have hardly any imprints on them. It's clear this horn was hardly played.

This sax does have a high F# key, but located with the left palm keys, rather than with the chromatic F#. It also has a high D# trill key, like many of the European horns did at the time.

Unfortunately the previous owner did have a disassembled chrome sax stand in the neck compartment of the case, and the neck was in there unprotected. Hence the neck sustained some scratches, as well as a few minor dings. I don't believe any of them go through to the inside because they're very shallow.

Also in the damage department, the only damage the horn has is one of the posts for the key guards on the bell has come loose. The case is not very protective, and the most likely cause of the loose post was a hit to the case.

For a sax that's spent most of the last 49 years in the closet, it plays remarkably well. It has very few leaks, and I could subtone all the way to low Bb. It has a dark sound compared to my other saxes (lack of resos will certainly add to that), but it really will need to go to the tech before I'm able to really say for sure what it is going to sound like.

There are some adjustments that need to be made. The high F# has too much play in it, and the low C spring needs to be tightened. Key heights need to be adjusted. I'll do up a complete list before I take it to my tech, but I'll need to spend some time playing it first. I figure a week or 2 on the horn will give me a good idea what it will do. I'll play around with some different mouthpieces and see what it prefers.

I did compare it to the De Villiers (a Keilwerth clone horn made by Dörfler & Jörka and roughly the same vintage), and was surprised how much smoother the Hohner was in sound. The D&J has much more edge and complexity to its sound--many more overtones present. In contrast, the Hohner was smoother, and has more of its core sound present. This is very different from the other saxes that I own. With regards to tone, I would liken this sax more to my nickel plated Klingsor, than to any other sax I own. (The Klingsor is of course also German, although perhaps a bit newer. It was made by Hammerschmidt.)

Anyways, I have put up an album that features some of the photos I took yesterday afternoon. Unfortunately the weather wouldn't allow me to take photos outside yesterday, so there are too many reflections in the shots. I'll take proper pics later, but in the meantime, here are some photos in case anyone is interested in seeing this lovely vintage horn.

Does anyone here have a Hohner President, or owned one in the past? Know anything about them?
 
Again, it's a beautiful horn.

NOTE: if you're a tenor player and need a horn, you'd better buy one before Helen hears about it! I think she has about 200 tenors. Something like that :p.

Helen wrote to me earlier about this horn, because I've at least heard of them before. The only other tidbit I can provide, because I had completely forgotten about it, is that I had a serial number chart for these horns. If anyone's interested, it's at http://saxpics.com/keilwerth/misc_pics/hohner/serials-jim_warner/Hohner Saxophone SN.htm

Helen, your Zephyr has similar keyguards, right? Or is that a newer horn? It'd be interesting to see the Hohner and an older Zephyr side-by-side.
 
I use a '54 as my main tenor. It does not have the High F# and the trill key on mine is a "D" trill key. Mine has had the works done to it - white Roo and domed metal oversized resonators and is still an exceptionally dark horn.

As far as ergo's I have a side key riser on the "E" key to make it easier to access without hitting the trill key. A couple palm risers and minor tweaks to key heights is all I had done to make it easily navigable.

It seems to favor a higher baffled mouthpiece. I alternate between a D9 and a Strathon. The Strathon gets 95% of the playing time, but the D9 is great for louder R&R stuff. (I actually did Kije with the Strathon at its lowest baffle) (!)

On mine altissimo is a bit of a bugger from F# to Ab. Still haven't found a satisfactory fingering that is stable at all dynamics. Honestly it is the only thing about this tenor that bothers me. For a while I thought it was due to not playing enough and I had just lost it. But my recently acquired backup horn just pops out altissimo like it was a standard range note.

Due to their unknown status as a decent horn, this message will self destruct at some point so the secret will remain a secret.
 
Jesus Helen, what a sweet lookin' ride. You and I need to build a shadow box for our pictures. I first saw a shadow box at Kessler's music and he even had the right kind of lights for reducing glare while still providing enough light. He shined his lights off the white ceiling above the shadow box. The first picture I came to with a reflection of your ceiling fan showing on a key cup made me think there was some kind of custom lacquer work involved. :cool:
 
pete said:
NOTE: if you're a tenor player and need a horn, you'd better buy one before Helen hears about it! I think she has about 200 tenors. Something like that :p....

Helen, your Zephyr has similar keyguards, right? Or is that a newer horn? It'd be interesting to see the Hohner and an older Zephyr side-by-side.
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There you go Pete, with that exaggeration again...I only have 150. :wink: Actually, I don't have nearly as many as Sarge, so it's him you should worry about. He's the one who'll have bought them all when all the decent vintage tenors in the world are off the market. :emoji_relaxed:

My Zephyr is from 1950, so it has the newer, Super 20 style key guards. I went for the sound on that one, not the looks. I passed up a couple of unibrow Zephs for my ugly duckling. They couldn't vibrate the china in the cabinet, and the metal on the walls properly for a rocker like me.

That's one of the reasons I liked this Hohner. It is so unlike anything I have, because almost everything I own is really bright, edgy, and paint-peely (is that even a word?). I'm going to take care not to have this converted to a rock horn... I have enough of those. I've been playing it with my Dukoff D7* this afternoon, instead of my usual S7. Next up, I'll actually crack out my jazz pieces. I have some beautiful vintage Bergs and Otto Links from years ago that I'm curious about.
 
Carl H. said:
I use a '54 as my main tenor. It does not have the High F# and the trill key on mine is a "D" trill key. Mine has had the works done to it - white Roo and domed metal oversized resonators and is still an exceptionally dark horn.

As far as ergo's I have a side key riser on the "E" key to make it easier to access without hitting the trill key. A couple palm risers and minor tweaks to key heights is all I had done to make it easily navigable.

It seems to favor a higher baffled mouthpiece. I alternate between a D9 and a Strathon. The Strathon gets 95% of the playing time, but the D9 is great for louder R&R stuff. (I actually did Kije with the Strathon at its lowest baffle) (!)

On mine altissimo is a bit of a bugger from F# to Ab. Still haven't found a satisfactory fingering that is stable at all dynamics. Honestly it is the only thing about this tenor that bothers me. For a while I thought it was due to not playing enough and I had just lost it. But my recently acquired backup horn just pops out altissimo like it was a standard range note.

Due to their unknown status as a decent horn, this message will self destruct at some point so the secret will remain a secret.
Click to expand...

Wow! Thanks so much Carl for this info about this rather rare bird of a horn brand we now have in common. What finish does your have?

I'm curious about this D triller you have. I've never seen one. I've only ever seen D# trill keys on the European horns. Do you have any photos of the key itself & where the tonehole is on the body? I'm curious to compare its location to that of my D#.

After spending a couple of hours playing it yesterday afternoon, I too am finding that the high E key is tripping me up. There is no danger of hitting the D# triller--that's far enough out of the way--but the location of the high E key is just different enough (compared to my other tenors) that it will take some getting used to.

Carl, do you notice that your President has a fair amount of resistance? I do know this one has some leaks, so that probably contributes to this. However, I find that this tenor has more resistance than any other tenor I've played. Again, comparing it to my nickel plated Klingsor--which is the closet of my tenors to it in tone--it too has similar resistance, but not quite as much. The amount of air the horn takes is astounding right now. It could be that it is leaking more than I know, and that I'm just compensating for it. A trip to the tech will most likely fix many of these quirks.

Altissimo... Yah... I'm with you on that.... I tried a few notes, but then decided that I'd first figure out how to use my high F# key. I was hitting the same wall you describe, although I have no problem running the full range of overtones on any of the low fingerings. This was making me think I might just have to adjust my fingerings for this sax. That's why I said to myself "forget it", and concentrated some time yesterday on playing in the high conventional range up to high F#, where I would use altissimo fingerings on my other horns.
 
Mine has genuine the "vintage lacquer" finish that folks seem to want on their new horns these days. In other words it looks its age.

It has the double socket neck which did take some effort to get correct, so that might be part of the problem if yours also has this. Getting it all set up did wonders for the playability, but it still will take all the air you can give it, and then some. For a while I was playing a 100/1 Berg on it with modest success, but the adjustatone really allowed me to play sustained passages without passing out.

The high D trill is positioned mirror image from the E key. Same touch and almost identical geometry. I'll take a pic tomorrow. In The Mood is nice with this key, well as nice as it gets, I suppose.

I've got to go, I'm playing from James Brown to Bossa Nova's on the President tonight for an outdoor gig. They were kind enough to give us 30 minutes before the time we play (the only band too, BTW) to set up everything and be ready to go, without making any noise. I get to do the sound system and my tenor, sop and Bb clarinet. I wish I had black running shoes. At least I've got 98% deet in the gig bag.
 
I managed to score some original research in German about Max Keilwerth's Hohner President saxophones. Together with the minimal info that I was able to find on-line, I put together what is perhaps the most comprehensive President saxophone page on the 'Net in either German or English.

Carl, if you ever feel like taking some pics of your horn, I'd love to have them for my Hohner gallery.
 
re: D# trill key

Hey. I messed around with the trill D key in rehearsal last night on I feel good - plenty of "D" in that one and I was focusing on the trill key for a change.

By itself it is a "highish" D, but nowhere near any other note. Played with 2nd finger C it is solidly a D. Very handy key.

How does your trill key play Helen?
 
Carl H. said:
Hey. I messed around with the trill D key in rehearsal last night on I feel good - plenty of "D" in that one and I was focusing on the trill key for a change.

By itself it is a "highish" D, but nowhere near any other note. Played with 2nd finger C it is solidly a D. Very handy key.

How does your trill key play Helen?
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The key is a D# trill key, and was common on many European horns at the time. Most of my German saxes all have them, as do some of my French ones.

If you play high D, and apply the key, how in tune is your D#?

I had never tried using the key to play a D, but did after I read your post. It passes, but I can't remember how in tune it was. My Prez has been with the tech. I'm picking it up later today, and I'll check it and let you know you in tune it is. But do check you D# tuning. It should be very close. Let me know, and I'll check my today as well. IIRC, my was within a few cents of the conventional D#.
 
I got my Hohner back better than new this afternoon. It sounded just as dark as it did the day it left the factory.

Just as I was going to leave his shop, my tech asked if I would give the extra neck he had a try. He had a beater Hohner tenor--11XXX--in his shop with the same finish as mine. (My tenor is serial # 104XX.) It even had the high F# key. His horn had had suffered some massive trauma and was twisted in the body tube. It was really beyond repair... but its neck was beautiful.

Now in case you're not familiar with Presidents (which most players wouldn't be, since they're so obscure), the necks have matching serial numbers with the horns.

I put the newer 11XXX neck on my 10XXX horn and wow, what a difference! The horn sounded like a different sax all together. It no longer was a dark Hohner sax. It suddenly sounded bright, and in your face. It's intonation was spot on as well. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Luckily David was willing to sell me the neck, so now I have basically have 2 saxophones in 1. Amazing really.

David checked inside both necks, and both were smooth, and dent free. He speculated that the sound difference might come from the production process. Since at the time things were still handmade, it's possible that my original neck might have had the metal hammered more.

It's an interesting theory David as put forth. Since there aren't that many Hohner tenors around, we don't really have a tonal standard for the brand so to speak. What's to say that the brighter one isn't the defective sound? (By Hohner standards I mean.)

In any event, now that the Prez is back, I can start experimenting with different mouthpieces and see what its likes and dislikes are. Although it was playing OK with my main Dukoff S7, I think something different will be in order for that horn.
 
When it comes to horns like this, condition is everything, and this one is the best of the best. Wow. Can you get the extra neck cheap? I would. But then again, I'm nuts.
 
I already got it. I walked out with the neck in the case. It was cheap as borscht. Dave treats me right. I'm a very fair client. I treat him very well, so I get treated well in return. Not to mention, I have enough vintage horns to keep him amused. He likes working on my stuff. It beats the same old, same old.
 
Living by the truism that you can never have too many pairs of shoes, or in my case, saxophones, I bought another Hohner President. However, this time it was an alto. It is from 1962--the last year Hohner put rolled tone holes on their Presidents--and is a 2 tone version like my tenor.

I have been on the hunt for a reasonably price one, that doesn't need much work, for about a year. Not being a real fan of eBay, I decided to buy it through my SOTW buddy JayePDX, and his shop 2ndending.com. He has lots of interesting vintage horns in on a regular basis, and he is a fan of Hohner, and German horns in general.

I got the sax yesterday, and I couldn't be more pleased. I hadn't heard or played a Hohner alto before, so I really had no clear idea what to expect. This is a fabulous sounding horn. It has the typical darker, mid-century, vintage German saxophone sound that one would expect. It is full, rich, and full of core tone. Yet there are enough overtones to make the sound interesting to my ear.

Jaye had some pads redone just before I got it, so it is good to go in that way. I am just going to get my tech to set it up exactly the way I like to have my altos set up. Once I get my Toneking back from its restoration in fall, it will be interesting to compare this 2 classic horns side by side.
 
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