Sticky Pads

Gandalfe

Gandalfe

Striving to play the changes in a melodic way.
Staff member
Administrator
I've had my ref 54 alto for approaching three years now. The A2 and bis key pads still are sticky. I've used dollar bills which work for a gig, powdered paper which work for a couple of gigs, but the problem persists. Is there a definitive fix for this annoying and omni-present problem?
 
Gandalf

Greetings:

Our body chemistry and diet play a large role in what accumulates not only on the pad surface, but also on the mating surface of the tonehole.

By reading you other posts it appears as though you are comfortable taking your instrument apart. IF you are, may I suggest cleaning both the pad and the tone hole with a mild detergent and a tooth brush. Allow your pads to dry thoroughly, then coat/spray them with a leather preservative.(it may change the color of the leather), be carefull not to damage the laquer on your saxophone.

If you are a bit squeamish, try the Eb,D# pad first, then draw your own conclusions.

If you can, quit drinking the rum and cokes before your gig!

If you have any further questions .....ask?????????

Joe Piccolo(no kidding)
 
I've had great success (short of having roo installed) with taking the key off, cleaning the pad and tone hole, then treating with teflon. PBlaster makes a teflon dry lube spray which does a great job. Normally I am not an advocate of stop gap repairs on main axes, but since the correct job is installing a different pad I figure no harm giving this a try. It hasn't failed me yet.


I squirt the spray on a plate or some piece of hard plastic til I get a SMALL pool. I then dip a Qtip and apply to the pad and tone hole. Let it dry (a few seconds) and reinstall. I've done this on saxes and bass clarinets with no harm.
 
I still use my old cleaning pads and some gig dust.
 
From a new tech who I'm gonna check out:

I have heard good and bad about a lot of sprays, dopes etc. I used to coat my personal sax pads in Neat's-foot oil and I swear I could feel and hear a sound difference. That was back in the day of touring and playing at Disney so I was very in touch with my horn.

I even put some on a few of my friends pads once without him knowing and he said...wow, what did you do to my horn? Of course I was willing to change those pads if he wanted me to. I have also heard that the oil is bad for the pad backing. I am willing to try anything. I have not seen Teflon spray but will look, it is worth a try.
 
Neatsfoot oil sometimes makes it worse. Try lighter fluid or charcoal lighter first, applied with a Q tip.

If you don't mind pads turning black, get some [HASHTAG]#600[/HASHTAG] ultrafine sandpaper, scribble on it with a pencil until the paper turns black (actually, silver) and then use it like powder papers. The pencil lead is graphite, a great dry lubricant that lasts longer than others.

Selmers from around the time yours was made have pads treated to make them waterproof. Thy're very good pads, and they last a long time but they get sticky, especially in a humid climate. They were a disaster in Florida. The store where I work bitched so much to Selmer that they changed pads. I settled on the solutions listed above after desperately trying all kinds of approaches to the problem.

I've never been a fan of neatsfoot oil, although I did use it once as a temporary solution to old leather pads on my bass clarinet that had hardened. If you must try it, use very little. I doubt that it will even penetrate waterproofed Selmer pads.
 
The oil trick is something that Emilio uses or has used . . . or so I have been told.

I've had a couple of horns that were overhauled and that had the pads treated with teflon spray. They don't stick.
 
Another tech's reply:

Teflon has not worked for me. Silicone has not worked.

Neatsfoot oil was a method we used in the old days basically to repel water and condition the leather. Neatsfoot oil never really cures and can gather dirt and debris. Sticky pads were not an issue in those days. Now the pad leather is treated with something that’s tends to make them stick. What I don't know, but we have so many problems with this.

One big factor in the Paris horns, and most other horns these days, is that they seat the pads far too deep. That combined with sticky leather and microscopic edges on tone holes will make them stick badly. This is just a time saving factor at the factory level. Pads are undersized and seated far too deep.

Solutions:
1. One successful solution is a spray on product called chemgaurd. This requires removal of the keys from the instrument. Spray on a light coat and let dry thoroughly. However this usually requires some new pads since the new Selmer seats are so deep. I’ve had good success with that product. It prevents sticking and allows for easy cleaning of a pad after it has accumulated dirt and debris. It’s a lacquer style material (smells like Nicholas 2105) basically a type of plastic coating. The down side is that it requires a lot of fussing around with pad leveling after the fact. But that is just extra bench time and worth it. The coating is clear and can give the illusion of thin leaks when looking with a leak light.

2. Another solution is Ferree’s one part epoxy (epoxy lacquer for brass) painted on new pads with a cotton swab and then heat cured. I know a tech that has used this method for years with good success.

There are techniques involved in both solutions. Just because you coat a pad does not mean it will not stick. Both of these solution may give a better resonating surface to the pads on a new instrument simply because the tone boosters are undersized compared to our custom tone booster installations. Generally speaking we offer the chemguard solution on overhauls at an additional cost to cover the extra labor. We also offer this service on new instruments.
 
(retype . .argh)

One problem that I've seen more recently is that factories that use mechanical compression to make sure everything seals really well is that the indentation into the Bbis pad is fairly significant.

Fairly significant meaning that the indentation went through more than 1/3 of the pad height itself. This basically created friction on both sides of the toneholes (inside and out) from the pad which made it "sticky".

Only replacing the pad resolved this type of problem.

On another note: I used a thin felt on the pad then slightly close the pad and turn the felt back and forth to clean all gunk off. Works pretty good for me.
 
I deal with sticky pads every day at the bench. There is no one solution since the causes of stickiness are many and varied. I strongly advise against neat'sfoot oil or other oil based leather treatments.

If there is an accumulation on the pad, I will clean it with a Q-tip dipped in Dr.'s Pad Cleaner if it is a water soluble substance, and Naptha (lighter fluid) if it is not.

http://www.doctorsprod.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=57

Once the pad is clean and dry, I use a strip of 1000 (600 is too coarse IMO) grit wet or dry sandpaper cut just a bit wider than the tonehole of the pad. I turn the sandpaper over and rough up the paper side at both ends with 80 grit sandpaper. Then I liberally sprinkle the roughed up area with either teflon powder or Gig Dust.

Then I place the strip under the pad with the paper (powdered) side up and the sandpaper side down. I close the pad with light pressure and pull the paper out 3 or 4 times. This cleans the surface of the tonehole and applies a light coating of the powder to the pores of the pad that you have previously cleaned.

I have found no technique that works as well on so many types of stickiness short of replacing the pad. And even then the tonehole is always leveled and its surface finished. I also use the Chem Guard in some instances on new pads only, and then just on the palm keys, high F# and E, and low Eb. I do not recommend its use for those who are inexperienced with pad installation and seating.

John
 
Some very informative information that I'm sure I'll have to use at some point.
 
Not being a tech, and not being one to want to take keys off, I've had to resort to methods that leave keys on. For the last 10 years I've used Charlie A's Gig Dust & Crud Patches. They work really well for me, and have not caused any damage to either the pads or the horns in a decade of use.

I treat my main horn every 6 months or so with the dust, and generally don't have any problems. I apply the dust with a Q-Tip after cleaning the pad with the patch. If a pad sticks in between treatment times (during those 6 months), I use a patch to clean it.

This stuff works much better than dollar bills or cigarette papers (another old time favorite I was taught by my instructors during the Jurassic Period ;-) ) ever did. The effects are much longer lasting.
 
Groovekiller said:
If you don't mind pads turning black, get some #600 ultrafine sandpaper, scribble on it with a pencil until the paper turns black (actually, silver) and then use it like powder papers. The pencil lead is graphite, a great dry lubricant that lasts longer than others.
Click to expand...

This works very well for extreme cases. For most scenarios, I've found that micro-grit sandpaper passed against the tone hole is a fairly long lasting fix. Be sure to use only light to moderate pressure whenever you're passing the sandpaper over the tone hole chimney.
 
I've had excellent results with a mixture of Eco-Flo Super Shene, a water-based acrylic (Tandy Leather) for fine leather, and powered PTFE (teflon - hobby shop dry lubricant). Make sure the pad is clean. Apply a quick coat of the acrylic all over the pad. Wipe off what doesn't absorb immediately. Spray on PTFE and rub in with your finger. Apply PTFE and rub until the leather is completely sealed. Clean off the excess. The pad is now completely water proof, will form an air tight seal, and won't stick. You still have to keep them clean.
 
I used topKote for leather interiors...it is like armorall and I swab the pad with it using a Q tip as an applicator and it ended my sticky pads forever.
 
MartinMods said:
I've had excellent results with a mixture of Eco-Flo Super Shene, a water-based acrylic (Tandy Leather) for fine leather, and powered PTFE (teflon - hobby shop dry lubricant). Make sure the pad is clean. Apply a quick coat of the acrylic all over the pad. Wipe off what doesn't absorb immediately. Spray on PTFE and rub in with your finger. Apply PTFE and rub until the leather is completely sealed. Clean off the excess. The pad is now completely water proof, will form an air tight seal, and won't stick. You still have to keep them clean.
Click to expand...
This sounds promising. Does the teflon powder come in an aerosol spray? I have used Chem-Guard which is a plastic aerosol spray coating on palm key and low Eb key pads on our student rentals with good success. The problem is that it costs $17.00 per can and must be ordered in boxes of a dozen.

John
 
jbtsax said:
This sounds promising. Does the teflon powder come in an aerosol spray? I have used Chem-Guard which is a plastic aerosol spray coating on palm key and low Eb key pads on our student rentals with good success. The problem is that it costs $17.00 per can and must be ordered in boxes of a dozen.

John
Click to expand...
Pblaster makes a TDL spray, it used to be called teflon dry lube. It is powdered teflon with a carrier that evaporates quickly. I have used it both by direct spraying on the pad, and spraying un a cup and using a q tip to apply it. Does a nice job. I have only once ever had to apply a 2nd application, and it was on a bass clarinet which had severe sticking issues, and it was a year later.
 
jbtsax said:
This sounds promising. Does the teflon powder come in an aerosol spray? I have used Chem-Guard which is a plastic aerosol spray coating on palm key and low Eb key pads on our student rentals with good success. The problem is that it costs $17.00 per can and must be ordered in boxes of a dozen.

John
Click to expand...


It's just the fine, white Teflon powder, in a small 4oz squeeze bottle with a needle applicator tip. It costs $5 - $6, at any hobby shop. One bottle will do probably 10 sets of pads.
 
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