Warning about drill extension for tone hole files!

[clarnibass]

Hi

I posted this on SOTW but some people only post here so I thought it's worth posting it here too.

Just a few weeks ago I posted [on SOTW] how the drill extension for the tone hole files is very good and how comfortable it is to file tone holes this way. I still think it is a good idea and method, but...

Here is a warning for everyone who is using a drill extension!
This is not about using the drill, but for the type of connection used with the extension. It is the ball-end Allen/hex key, going into an Allen/hex head screw, shown in the first photo. This is the type that comes with the Music Medic drill extension and I think (but not sure) also the J.L. Smith files which is similar.

Here is the problem: The key/extension can get stuck inside the screw. What happens next is the file is not aligned against the tone hole anymore and instead it is dancing on it, keeping in the direction that it got stuck in. It will file only some sides of the tone hole and not others. How much depends on how close to straight you were holding it and how fast you noticed it started happening. It is probably happening from one of the key teeth getting stuck in one of the corners, not letting it have the freedom like it should.

For anyone who has never had this happen: I've used these files with this system many times and for a long time, and it never happened... until it did! Another repairer told me this happened to them some years ago, using the best quality Allen key and screws, so they changed to different system.

Originally from a recommendation of another repairer (Gordon Palmer) I now changed to a different drill extension system using a universal joint, shown in the second photo. Gordon also uses a similar idea but a different system.

This type of uni joint system raises slightly the place of the free joint so it is a bit riskier to use with very small files for small tone holes (e.g. top upper stack, palms). But I've almost always filed those by hand anyway because they are much faster than bigger tone holes. So this is not a real issue.

Nitai

 

[jbtsax]

Thank you for that warning Nitai. I have used the Music Medic set on hundreds of toneholes and never had a problem. I almost never use the long hex extension that came with the set. Instead I cut the handle off the T handle manual extension which is much shorter and use that. The shorter shaft seems to allow more control.

The other things that I have done that seem to help are:

-making a set of delrin guides to better match the inside diameter of the toneholes,
-using a lightweight Makita drill on low speed,
-adding a few drops of synthetic oil to the diamond grit,
-keeping as light a pressure as possible,
-holding the shaft as perpendicular to the tonehole as the body will allow.

These wonderful powered rotary files have cut my tonehole leveling time by over 2/3. I even use it on flutes as well. It is not only a much faster system, but it does a better job as well.

John

 

[tictactux]

...just wondering - would a flexible shaft help? I usually like to have my hands as close to the work as possible, and I prefer a flex shaft over a bulky and balky machine (I do have a foot-operated "emergency off" switch...)

 

[clarnibass]

I have used the Music Medic set on hundreds of toneholes and never had a problem.

That was exactly the situation for me, until it suddenly happened. Some of the things you listed can help, but when this happened to me the guide was very accurate, I put oil on the file, the drill was on low speed, I didn't use a lot of pressure and I held it as perpendicular as possible. I used the long extension but I don't think that would make a very significant difference to this specific problem. The chance is small, adding your list it's even smaller. I wanted to completely eliminate it.

...just wondering - would a flexible shaft help? I usually like to have my hands as close to the work as possible, and I prefer a flex shaft over a bulky and balky machine (I do have a foot-operated "emergency off" switch...)

I've tried one option for a flexible shaft. Not exactly what you describe, but a flexible extension where I still held the drill and the flexible shaft was connected to the files. It seemed ok at first, but I quickly found problems and dismissed this.

What you describe sounds like you don't want to hold the motor. This would mean you need something like a pendant drill with a hand-piece that could hold the exntention with a chuck. I'm not sure if there's a pendant drill that is good for this. I'm also not sure this would feel more comfortable for tone hole files. It is very different from work that is usually done with a tool like this.

I think the "gun" shape of the drill makes it a lot more comfortable than a pendant drill hand-piece would be. In addtion, as long as you use the ball-end Allen/hex key type of extension, it doesn't matter how you hold it, the risk is there.

BTW, I agree with the general concept of having a more comfortable tool to hold. Do you use a pendant drill for some work? Wait until you try a micromotor!

 

[Gandalfe]

Am I missing something here? Why wouldn't you use a drill press?

 

[Steve]

I never use a drill when I use tonehole files.

I first put the tonehole files upside down as the backside are supposedly super flat too (I don't use musicmedic .. i used Ferrees and a set i got from Votaw).

I wiggle it around to see how flat the tonehole itself is and note the inconsistencies

If I see some chimney pushes (pushed down into the body) then I would correct the chimneys by using some dent tools that alllow you to pull up. This isn't a "bang it" job but very light and direct pressure. This is a normal procedure for rolled toneholes.

on the tonehole files i use as light as pressure as possible noting which side(s) are not flat from the previous check.

you do not want to take much at all from the chimneys as the more you take out the more possible uneveness you get between chimneys and possibly you have to have uneven stack keys for venting. It's all dependent upon how critical the technician.

Gandalfe - a drill press would require one to properly hold the sax and consistently on each tonehole -- quite a jig to build. and the pressure one puts DOWN on the chimney is also a possibility of pushing the chimney into the body. it may be minimal but something that I would avoid all together. Plus you may have to have the body, bow and bell separate.

 

[Gandalfe]

Wondered about that. But then I couldn't even build a 2 X 4 in shop class.

 

[Groovekiller]

Most of my repairs need to be done fast, often with the customer waiting while I do the work. Yet I have never seen the need for power tools when repairing toneholes. Ferre's rotary files are reasonably fast when used by hand. Also, the old fashioned flat tone hole files have gotten a bad rap. Properly used, they do a great job, if the clearance is there.

 

[clarnibass]

This is now changing a bit from my warning to the general idea of using the drill for tone hole files. So some comments on that.

Am I missing something here? Why wouldn't you use a drill press?

IMO it is not realistic to build the jig to hold the saxophone. It is so difficult/slow to set the saxophone exactly level, so you'd have to use a system for a free joint anyway, so the same warning applies. In addition, possibly the most important is you lose the sensitivity that you have by holding the tool.

I never use a drill when I use tonehole files.

For a long time I resisted using a drill for this. Anotehr repairer told me several times how it makes it so much faster. I was only about 50% convinced when I bought the tools for this. After using this just a few times I was convinced. BTW I use two types, the diamond sanding files and metal tooth files.

I first put the tonehole files upside down as the backside are supposedly super flat too... wiggle it around to see how flat the tonehole itself is and note the inconsistencies

I use the back of the files to check too. I also check with a light inside the saxophone same as checking for leaks with light.

If I see some chimney pushes (pushed down into the body) then I would correct the chimneys by using some dent tools that alllow you to pull up. This isn't a "bang it" job but very light and direct pressure. This is a normal procedure for rolled toneholes.

Yes, I think tapping and raising is standard. However only the short wall sides are really possible to change. Unfortunately a lot of times tone holes are very irregular in their unlevelness. They would have sudden high and low spots, in random locations, so it is many times even impossible to make close to correct by tapping and raising.

you do not want to take much at all from the chimneys as the more you take out the more possible uneveness you get between chimneys and possibly you have to have uneven stack keys for venting. It's all dependent upon how critical the technician.

Yes, taking off as little as possible is a good idea, but it doesn't really affect venting in any way because that is easily fixed by controling the venting. Unless you change the shape of the linkage, which for sax stack keys is actually almost always good, then the ventings of the stack keys depend on each other.

So I don't agree that filing a tone hole will have an effect on stack venting. In contrast, I see some saxophones, even the same model, which have considerably different chimney height, even for the same key, and both would play just fine.

Most of my repairs need to be done fast, often with the customer waiting while I do the work. Yet I have never seen the need for power tools when repairing toneholes. Ferre's rotary files are reasonably fast when used by hand. Also, the old fashioned flat tone hole files have gotten a bad rap. Properly used, they do a great job, if the clearance is there.

I can understand. I thought mostly the same until I tried it. It's fine if someone doesn't like it, but many repairers like this system. I also do many repairs while customers wait.

Re the old wide flat files, I have those too and have some problems with them. First, it is not possible to get as flat tone hole with them IMO. Second, eventhough they are supposedly fine, they are still pretty aggressive. Much more aggressive than the rotary files or sanding discs. So I don't like the rough surface they leave on the rim.

 

[Steve]

So I don't agree that filing a tone hole will have an effect on stack venting. In contrast, I see some saxophones, even the same model, which have considerably different chimney height, even for the same key, and both would play just fine.

never said it would cause a playing problem.
just that some maybe over zealous in sanding and the visual unevenness

fyi .. i'm very finicky about alot of things .. and uneven keyheight, even though the venting would be fine, would literally drive me crazy until i evened each tonehole up.

 

[clarnibass]

fyi .. i'm very finicky about alot of things .. and uneven keyheight, even though the venting would be fine, would literally drive me crazy until i evened each tonehole up.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

If you are talking about correct venting, but key heights themsevles are different, because the tone holes have changed, I don't see how this would happen. Filing the tone hole is usually little. If you float a pad that is probably more difference. If you tap and raise tone holes it changes their height also. It is impossible to simply raise an entire tone hole and keep it level.

If you are talking about the tone hole walls looking different, raising and tapping won't change that anyway. Also most saxophones don't have tone hole walls that are the same for all the tone holes.

Also, some keys need more venting than others, so to keep the key heights similar (to be comfortable) it can be a good thing if the tone holes are slightly different heights.

So what did you mean?

 

[Steve]

basically .. and you aren't this way. with diamond rotary files one can become over zealous and sand them down more than "usually little".

and yes you can, float the pads more or less, yes you can even the keywork etc ... but I prefer as minimal TH filing as needed, sometimes techs float pads and loose the firm backing (it crunches the shellac or the hot glue gets stretched and then reseats later and pads fall out quicker than normal) etc.

I'm not saying you do this at all. I'm just saying some may be over zealous with using a power drill on diamond rotary files.

This is a general warning not an attack against you. I'm speaking in general to anyone reading.