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pete

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
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You've gotta love an eBay ad that contains the following copy:

... [this ad] will create a lot of controversy, and some will question our credibility, some of you may even send us death threats and/or run to SOTW and post that we have no idea what we are talking about and there is no way that this is original. Before you do that, please consult with an expert on Euro SBA finishes ...
Click to expand...

Mmmm. Well. OK.

Leaving the florid prose behind, I have not seen a horn that looks as dark this, outside of horns people have specifically tried to make look this dark, as in the case of the Cannonball "Brute" finished horns. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Cannonball does this with a mild acid. If I'm right, I'd think that it'd be possible that if you lived in a place that has a high, but not too high acid content in the air, you could replicate this in 60ish years.

It also looks kinda shiny, though. The Brute finish doesn't. I've seen them in person. A little clear lacquer, perhaps? Overly harsh lighting and/or bad camera technique?

The other thing is that the seller happens to have a Buescher C Melody he's selling that has a very simular looking finish.

What does the repair community think?

Now, 'scuse me for a moment whilst I prepare a post for SOTW :p.
 
Gee, that engraving looks a bit iffy to me... But then I'm not "an expert on Euro SBA finishes". :) I've just owned Selmers for 30 years, and have looked at their sharp, crisp, engraving daily. Oh, and I do have 1 relac, and its engraving looks remarkably similar to the engraving on this SBA. Maybe my bari is a Euro finish Mark VI? :emoji_smile:
 
You and I have also only seen a couple of bare brass horns in putting up our websites :).

There is a difference between European-released and US-released Mark VI horns: the US ones generally had a matching serial number in the neck and a slightly different lacquer color (official Selmer reference note regarding that). However, if you take a peek at the VI comparison shots I have on my blog, I'd have to say that the variation in color makes it too difficult to say that a lacquered VI is European or not, just by looking at it from a distance.

Now, most folks agree that the Mark VIs finished in two-tone -- either lacquer body with silver-plated keywork (rare) or lacquer body with nickel-plated keywork -- are definitely European. Additionally, a lot of European-released VIs have less engraving.

This eBay horn, however, looks like all the original lacquer is gone and what you're seeing is the effects of something on a bare brass finish.

I looked to see if I could find anything close to a finish like the eBay horn and I came across this Mark VI. It's very dark, but darker because of a lack of flash (some of the close ups are relatively light). It's also noted that, "... [This horn] has been used in the Caribbean." So the finish is shot. It's not shiny, though.

==============

On a completely different note, this is the highest serial number I've seen on an SBA, by about 1200. It's also definitely an SBA and not a VI because it's got that big sweeping arm for the low C# key (compare with a VI). The little slide-y thing on the C#/Bb keys on the VI was actually introduced on some SBAs.
 
Yeah, I've seen 'em like that before. The horns that I remember looking like this spent a lot of time in Florida, but I almost bought one just like this from Charles Ponte, in NYC. Ponte's horn was a mk6, with the serial number in the 50,000 range, maybe 55, or 56 thousand. The finish had turned black, the action had a magnificent response and the horn BLEW. He wanted $350 for it (back in the 70s), and when I came back with the money a few days later, it was gone. So I popped for a mint condition later model for 50 dollars more.

I'm not saying if this finish is original or not, just that I've seen horns from this vintage that have turned black. I sure wish I could have copped Ponte's old black tenor.

Julian
 
My 1950 Zephyr has a finish similar to that Mark VI from USA Horn. It too is not shiny. It was a 1 owner horn before I got it from Sarge, and lost approx. 90% its lacquer. It came from the southern United States somewhere.

As I said before, what doesn't jive in my eyes, is the engraving on the bell--too faint for what Selmer normally has. Could it be an artifact of the photography? Sure. It does however, make me more suspicious than I would already be based on the finish alone.
 
sideC said:
Yeah, I've seen 'em like that before. The horns that I remember looking like this spent a lot of time in Florida, Julian
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I wonder if someone put a coat of lacquer on it, to protect that patina? That might explain the shine.
 
Helen said:
I wonder if someone put a coat of lacquer on it, to protect that patina? That might explain the shine.
Click to expand...

Could be. And I'm also wondering if the high heat and humidity of Florida and other places in the deep south have something to do with darkening the lacquer on horns from this vintage. It seems that the horns I've seen like this tend to be from the middle '50s and were located in Florida or other places in the deep south. Just a thought.

Julian
 
Personally, I don't think it's bad looking, either. However, for the price point they're asking, $13K, I'd want perfect mint condition. And a few other horns.
 
Regarding horn finish changes...

Both our lead tenor player and I took our top-end Yamaha horns (tenor and baritone) to a performance held on the decks of the USS Texas, which is docked near here as a memorial to the dreadnought battleship.

The ship is located off of the Houston Ship Channel, home to the third or second largest complex of refineries and chemical plants in the world, so emissions from one or some of them may have had something to do with what happened next. Shortly after removing the horns from the cases and starting up playing, I noticed that both the body of my horn and the posts and key rods were turning a darker shade of "gold".

The change took place over a matter of minutes, not much longer than it took to play "In The Mood". By the end of the performance, both of our horns had made the change, and it was quite noticeable, both a cause for comment and (on our part) concern.

Both horns have returned to more or less normal these days, but I can still detect a difference between the posts that changed color and the ones that didn't.
 
SOTSDO said:
Both our lead tenor player and I took our top-end Yamaha horns (tenor and baritone) to a performance held on the decks of the USS Texas, which is docked near here as a memorial to the dreadnought battleship.

The ship is located off of the Houston Ship Channel, home to the third or second largest complex of refineries and chemical plants in the world, so emissions from one or some of them may have had something to do with what happened next. Shortly after removing the horns from the cases and starting up playing, I noticed that both the body of my horn and the posts and key rods were turning a darker shade of "gold".

The change took place over a matter of minutes, not much longer than it took to play "In The Mood". By the end of the performance, both of our horns had made the change, and it was quite noticeable, both a cause for comment and (on our part) concern.

Both horns have returned to more or less normal these days, but I can still detect a difference between the posts that changed color and the ones that didn't.
Click to expand...
...mmmh and what about the color of the lungs of those unfortunate who spend a lifetime in this zone ?
J
 
SOTSDO said:
Both our lead tenor player and I took our top-end Yamaha horns (tenor and baritone) to a performance held on the decks of the USS Texas, which is docked near here as a memorial to the dreadnought battleship.

The ship is located off of the Houston Ship Channel, home to the third or second largest complex of refineries and chemical plants in the world, so emissions from one or some of them may have had something to do with what happened next. Shortly after removing the horns from the cases and starting up playing, I noticed that both the body of my horn and the posts and key rods were turning a darker shade of "gold".

The change took place over a matter of minutes, not much longer than it took to play "In The Mood". By the end of the performance, both of our horns had made the change, and it was quite noticeable, both a cause for comment and (on our part) concern.

Both horns have returned to more or less normal these days, but I can still detect a difference between the posts that changed color and the ones that didn't.
Click to expand...

Did you have to do any hand polishing (polishing cloth) or anything like that, or did it just mostly return to normal over time ?
 
The return was a slow fading back to normal, although I think that I can still see some difference between some of the posts (not all posts and keywork changed colors, only a portion of it).

Our Ship Channel industries are major pains in the butt for we government regulators. Air quality issues abound (these are handled by the state environmental regulators), as well as the occasional plant explosions and deaths (which were my bailiwick). When I moved here, I drew ten mile circles on a map around all of the plants that use hydrofluoric acid, and then did our house shopping outside the circles.
 
Well someone pulled the trigger. This SBA, complete with mysteriously odd finish, sold for $11,000. :eek: And no Pete, it wasn't me... :p. The day that I spend over $10,000 on a horn, is the day I order one from Benedikt Eppelsheim. :)
 
Actually, most likely not. Probably a Tubax. Bass would be next on my list though. ;-)
 
Oh, it would without a doubt cost more than 11,000, for that matter, so will one of his bass saxes. But these horns are worth it.

I suspect my next trip to Germany will be an expensive one. Because I very much doubt I could go on a visit to his factory without ordering one of his horns. :emoji_rage: A girl has only so much will power after all. :emoji_smile:
 
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