Yanagisawa B901/2 versus B991

[steen]

Hi Helen,

Seems like we are both more interested in the bari than the Porche.

I have had pretty mixed experiences buying through both SOTW and ebay. At least with the ebay/paypal combo, one can almost be sure to get the money back if the horn is significantly different from the description. I know very well what the implications are when a tenor is not packaged properly. The vintage non-Selmer style horns with a direct bell-body connection will invariably show up with a pushed in bell. Less experience with baris but a I did as posted elsewhere on WooF receive a PanAm bari purchased through ebay with the same problem. Fortunately, and this is more than I can say with "mistakes" on SOTW, the seller refunded me immediately and told me not to bother sending the horn back. If I can get that horn fixed inexpensively I will. Otherwise, it will be parsed out for parts.

As far as playtesting goes, with the exception of the left pinky cluster on Conn altos and tenors (Chus/6-10Ms) - it is angled more forward on the baris - I have yet to play a horn where I would blame "issues" on the ergonomics and not me and that includes Bueschers and Martins. Just don't feel like taking a chance on, say, a Dolnet bari, due to the size of the horn and inconveniences of shipping an instrument of that size. Selmer, Keilwerth, Yamaha, Yani...I am not picky with ergos. Much more concerned that the horn plays in tune, stays in adjustment, shows up in good condition, and, since it is a bari, is sturdy. I have plenty of tenors, and switching between a Super 20 and a MKVI or MKVII isn't a problem. They all work for me and the time is better spent on practicing than brooding over ergos.

The horn won't come from SOTW. I have quit the site twice over frustrations with how the place is moderated (or isn't) and will leave it at that. Suffice it to say that if a story has two sides, I would expect a moderator to hear both rather than shooting first and not asking afterwards. The horn won't come from any local dealer with a decent selection because such to my knowledge no longer exists. My career and situation precludes me from taking vacation to find a horn. At least I would have to be selfish and use that time for me rather than visting my family. On the career side, it will eat you raw if you don't insist on having other interests. My ear is good and I love saxes (and bass clarinets although I don't own one and won't go there), so that is the driving force.

The horn might come from Paul Maslin, whom I have had great dealings with and would recommend to anyone. I will take your word for that Sarge is OK as well. Otherwise, for something the size of a bari, it either has to be new or come from someone I trust, or craigslist in Boston, so I can see for myself. The internet has effectively killed off loads of music stores. No surprise to use the internet to solicit input in a situation like this, is there? Here as opposed to there, you recieve replies from people who really know what they are talking about.

Guess I am still leaning towards a Yani except that I am not quite sure about how to read the tea leaves on the brass being softer. I have heard the same about Yamahas. Groovekiller killed the B902 even though that would have come slightly cheaper than the B901.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone for all the input. I really appreciate it.

 

[Gandalfe]

Guess I am still leaning towards a Yani except that I am not quite sure about how to read the tea leaves on the brass being softer. I have heard the same about Yamahas. Groovekiller killed the B902 even though that would have come slightly cheaper than the B901.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone for all the input. I really appreciate it.

I don't think that is a problem. My son's B990 survived marching band and still looks pristine. I've bumped the bell of my B991 more than a couple of times and you can hardly tell.

 

[Ed]

I'm partial to Yanagisawa bari's but I will say that I enjoyed playing saxhounds Yamaha 52.

 

[gregcagle]

I bought my b990 from WWBW in 1998. It showed up while I was traveling, and sat on the doorstep for three days (!) until I got home. No signature required .

When I started back up again, I hadn't played seriously in about 20 years. I see my self as a bari player only; I can play the other horns but bari is where my head is at. Before I quit (in 1979) I played mostly King horns (in high school and college) and for a year had the pleasure of playing a new MK VI.

So when I decided to start back up again, I had a pretty good idea of what I wanted. I could not afford another Selmer, and I didn't necessarily want one anyway because of the intonation issues I'd had with the MK VI. I wanted something that was sturdy as well; I didn't care too much about the weight (I'm a fairly big guy). Ergonomics were not so much of an issue. I had played a Yani tenor in the past and was pretty impressed, and I figured that Yani, unlike Yamaha, only makes saxophones. That's gotta be worth something, right? I also liked the idea of the dual arms on the bell keys, because I had had issues on the Selmer with the bell keys sealing correctly and I know they get banged around.

So the B990 showed up in perfect condition, and played perfectly right out of the box with no adjustment necessary. And the intonation was almost always right on, which was a big win for me. And I've been playing it ever since. It's been knocked over on its stand, and flawlessly repaired by Wally's in Oregon City, and still plays like the day I got it. I marched with it in the Portland Rose Parade (with the One More Time Around Again Marching Band) and it's been to Autzen Stadium for Oregon Duck football games. And survived . I use it for wind ensemble, quartet, big band, whatever. I've never considered replacing it.

I love the low A mechanism and the fact that I can play it ppp. The worst thing I can say about it is that the lacquer is coming off of some of the long rods.

- Greg

 

[pete]

Seems like we are both more interested in the bari than the Porche.

But I still like the pics. I had to use a slightly different one in the small calendar, but I still like it.

I have had pretty mixed experiences buying through both SOTW and ebay.

I've bought three horns on eBay. One was an approximately 1906 Couesnon bari, one was a gold-plated Martin C melody and one was an Amati ATS-61 that I bought mainly for the case. Of these, the Martin was described incorrectly. However, if I was looking for a horn to be an immediate player, I'd do like Helen mentions and pick a dealer. Hey, a lot of them have a "try before you buy" and all you're out is shipping. And even a bari isn't that expensive to ship.

I have quit the site twice over frustrations with how the place is moderated (or isn't) and will leave it at that. Suffice it to say that if a story has two sides, I would expect a moderator to hear both rather than shooting first and not asking afterwards.

I just ban everyone involved. It's soooo much easier. (OK, more seriously, I try to get everyone's input and all the stories straight, but I can and do ban people/lock threads until I've had a chance to take a look.)

The horn might come from Paul Maslin, whom I have had great dealings with and would recommend to anyone. I will take your word for that Sarge is OK as well.

I have not bought horns from Gayle at VintageSax, Sarge at WorldWideSax, Mark at Saxquest, Bear at Cybersax, or the folks at JunkDude.com. Only the folks at USAHorn.com. I have corresponded with all of them, though, and they're nice people.

Personally, as a bari player, there are three horns I'd love to try: a low A SML baritone (Rev. D or later), a Buffet S1 or SDA, and a Selmer SBA. The reasons: I hear the SML is good, really good. I loved my Dyanaction alto and I'd like to see if a SDA bari is better (the S1 would also have that funky keywork). The SBA is supposed to be the best all-around Selmer bari, even beyond the VI -- and the VI I played was amazing. However, it's also a tad difficult to FIND these horns ....

 

[Helen]

FWIW, I mention Gayle at Vintage Sax.com and Sarge at World Wide Sax by name because I have purchased saxes from both of them. I have referred people to both as well, and I know those people have been happy. The saxophones are always as described, and arrive packaged well. There are no surprises when dealing with either one of these two vintage saxes dealers.

I too have had mixed success on SOTW. My 10M was not at all as advertised. It was a train wreck when I bought it. I now have a horn that in total cost me $1,000 more than it is worth... Oh well... I guess I'll be buried with it. ;-)

Just a few weeks ago I bought the 2 Hammerschmidt Klingsor tenors from someone I've been in email contact with for a number of years. It was not your usual type of transaction at all. This SOTW member is a stand up guy, and I knew what I would be getting would be exactly how he described the horns. My only concern was the shipping. Luckily the shipping gods/goddesses were watching over the saxes, and the 2 of them arrived safe and sound.

Yes, you roll the dice and take your chances sometimes when it comes to this stuff. The bigger the horns, the bigger the chances. My preference for baris, and definitely bass saxes, is to pick them up in person, if at all possible.

 

[Gandalfe]

Groovekiller killed the B902 even though that would have come slightly cheaper than the B901.

I forgot to mention that my S992 doesn't seem to have any problems associated with soft metal. I don't doubt Randy's input, but I've had this soprano for more than a couple of years, set it on a stand in a theater pit and Big Band stage, and have have nary a problem.

 

[Gandalfe]

Yes, you roll the dice and take your chances sometimes when it comes to this stuff. The bigger the horns, the bigger the chances. My preference for baris, and definitely bass saxes, is to pick them up in person, if at all possible.

It pays to live down the street from a guy who sells a lot of used music instruments. But it is also a double-edged sword because I have bought more instruments (witness the f-mezzo last week) than I would have otherwise.

 

[Dave Dolson]

I forgot to mention that my S992 doesn't seem to have any problems associated with soft metal. I don't doubt Randy's input, but I've had this soprano for more than a couple of years, set it on a stand in a theater pit and Big Band stage, and have have nary a problem.

So, may I assume the lacquer is holding up well? As I've written, mine is not doing so well, lacquer-wise. In fact none of the Yanagisawa sopranos I've owned have done well with their lacquer. That doesn't affect their playability - they all play fine, but I was disappointed in the finishes, brass or lacquer. I even have an after-market Yanagisawa soprano solid-silver straight neck that is showing lacquer wear. DAVE

 

[pete]

I even have an after-market Yanagisawa soprano solid-silver straight neck that is showing lacquer wear. DAVE

Is it just the neck that's silver and the rest of the horn that's lacquer?

FWIW, while I haven't seen a ton of Yanis -- and I've only played two -- I hadn't heard about the lacquer-wear issue. More reason to buy silver, gold or nickel plate, I suppose .

 

[Dave Dolson]

Pete: I bought the neck off of eBay a few years back. And, I bought another one, too, off eBay - the second one was a curved soprano neck. Both are solid-silver necks and both have a clear coat of laqcuer on them. I know that because the lacquer is spotting on the straight neck.

The lacquer is, I'm assuming a factory-applied coating. Both necks were PERFECT when I bought them. FWIW, I use the straight solid-silver neck on my curved SC902. All of the Yanagisawa sopranos I've owned, brass and bronze, were lacquered by the factory. DAVE

 

[pete]

Hmm. Makes me wonder which "solid silver"/"plated" horns have an additional clear-coat of lacquer.

 

[Dave Dolson]

Good point, Pete. If the lacquer doesn't "spot", then it would be difficult to determine whether or not the silver-plated horn you are holding has a coat of lacquer on it. I've had silver-plated horns over the years and none of them tarnished, so I'm guessing they all did.

But in the end, I don't think it matters much. Maybe the body material matters but the presence or absence of lacquer doesn't matter, at least in my opinion. DAVE

 

[Gandalfe]

So, may I assume the lacquer is holding up well? As I've written, mine is not doing so well, lacquer-wise. In fact none of the Yanagisawa sopranos I've owned have done well with their lacquer. That doesn't affect their playability - they all play fine, but I was disappointed in the finishes, brass or lacquer. I even have an after-market Yanagisawa soprano solid-silver straight neck that is showing lacquer wear. DAVE

The lacquer on my S992 is showing no wear... yet.

 

[Helen]

It pays to live down the street from a guy who sells a lot of used music instruments. But it is also a double-edged sword because I have bought more instruments (witness the f-mezzo last week) than I would have otherwise.

Yeah, if I lived down the road from Matt... Well... Oh my... I'd be in BIG trouble... I would have the coolest horn collection on the block though. ;-) Well that is next to Matt himself of course... :-D

 

[pete]

Yeah, if I lived down the road from Matt... Well... Oh my... I'd be in BIG trouble... I would have the coolest horn collection on the block though. ;-) Well that is next to Matt himself of course... :-D

I dunno. Paul Cohen has, what, 100+ horns? He does sell them on occasion ....



RE: Plating, I am also of the opinion that material/plating doesn't matter for the tone, but I think plated horns look nicer. Additionally, if you look at a plated horn that's, say, 50 years old, they tend to look nicer than a lacquer horn that's that old. At least, if you consider normal wear and tear. It's a round-about way of me saying that if I was to buy another horn and I had a choice of lacquer or plated, all other things being equal or plated being slightly more, I'd get plated.

 

[Dave Dolson]

Pete: I agree based on appearance alone.

My 1920's TT's (two sopranos, an alto, and a C-Mel) are still gorgeous instruments - plus they play well. I have a gold-plated '32 Cigar Cutter alto that doesn't look so hot but it still plays like a dream.

I have a couple of lacquered brass Buescher altos (Big B and a TH&C) that are similarly ugly as the 'Cutter but are newer horns, so I'm not so sure about gold-plating. I've had 'em all ways over the years, and I think silver is probably the most durable, but that is only anecdotal, not based on scientific reasoning. DAVE

 

[pete]

I think silver is probably the most durable, but that is only anecdotal, not based on scientific reasoning.

[mode=Scientific] The higher up you go in the periodic table, the softer the metal. For instance, silver (Ag, #47) is lower than gold (Au, #79) (we all know how soft 24K gold is), so one could *assume* that if the plating is "harder" it would be more durable.

(However, you can get too "hard" and become brittle, like titanium (Ti, #22) -- Keilwerth did have at least one Ti -plated horn.)

As far as the saxophone is concerned, gold plated horns are (generally) brass horns plated silver and then plated gold, as gold does not bond to brass, but bonds to silver.

In my sax picture hunting days, I've seen more nickel-plated (Ni, #28) horns that had less plating wear than silver or gold -- and the nickel plated horns generally looked nicer than their silver or gold plated brethren. However, nickel-plate was not really all that common on US makes because Buescher, at one point, said, "Nickel plate = low quality". Kohlert (Czech/German), for instance, didn't get that memo and produced some really fabulous-looking nickel-plated horns.

I'd also think that how things are plated makes a difference.

It would be an interesting experiment: buy a horn of the same make/model in each finish and plating, play each an equal amount and then wait 50 years and see which horn has the most wear. [/mode]

FWIW, I've seen that lacquer horns that have the most engraving generally have the most wear: Buescher "Big B" Aristocrats, King Zephyrs, Martin Committees, Selmer Mark VI/SBA/BA, etc. You take a horn that has very little engraving, like most Mark VIIs or a Yamaha 52, and you see little wear. On average .

 

[Dave Dolson]

Yup, I knew about the gold-over-silver plating thing. In fact, my gold-plated 'Cutter alto shows some silver where the gold-plate has worn off. A lot of that GP has been scratched and pitted, too . . . like I wrote, it ain't purty. I kinda think that 'Cutter saw a lot of service before it came into MY hands several years ago.

Back to Yanagisawas, though . . . my S992's worst lacquer wear is on the back of the tube - in two spots where I rarely, if ever, touch the horn.

Oh, the touches are worn, too, along with the long rods. But those are spots where my hands are almost always touching. And, my other Yanagisawa sopranos (all of them, owned AND long gone) have had wear where my hands touch. I know - this is a bit repetitive. DAVE

 

[retread]

I think I posted this some time ago on SOTW. Of the Yanis I've owned, only the S990 had unusual lacquer loss. The A880, T901 and B901 have had fine, durable finishes.