Another Germanic Horn

[pete]

OK. I've beaten myself up for about 1/2 hour on this horn, so I'm letting y'all take a crack.

The horn. It's engraved "Atlantic."

* My opinion is that this horn is extremely close to some of the Max Keilwerth horns, however that chromatic F# is wrong. There's also another thing I'll get to in a minute.
* I thought it looked a lot like a very early -- like Modell 1 -- Julius Keilwerths, but there's that thing I'll get to in a minute.

That bell-to-body brace = Germanic, tho.

I looked at a variety of other horns and rejected many makes and models immediately. Some would have the same bell-to-body brace, but wouldn't have the chromatic F# or the G# table would be wrong. There's also the bracing of the key arm on the bell keys and that's very distinctive.

I did some Googling and found that there's another similar Atllantic out there. Linky. (Even 6 years later, the links still work.)

If you have a chance to go through the pics in that thread, you'll find an almost identical horn to the one I posted, but the neck is different. But, because the body is almost identical, I can tell you that there's no "Best in the World, JGK" or "Pure-Tone" stamp, so bye-bye Max or Julius Keilwerth. 5-digit serial number shoots down Kohlert -- and pre-WWII Kohlerts looked different, anyway.

Lillelobo (the poster in the thread I mention) does point out that I had an Amati on saxpics.com that looks similar, but the only points of similarity to Lillelobo's horn are the neck and the chromatic F# key, everything else is different and, as noted, the neck on the horn I have on thesax.info looks very different.

The last thing is that I have a Buescher Atlantic archived somewhere, which I'll try to find (they weren't great pics, anyway). I mentioned, awhile back, about a couple other Not Buescher-Bueschers, too. Interesting ....

 

[Helen]

FWIW, the bell to body brace looks like that of the Hohner President.

I'm wondering if it wasn't done in a small, cottage industry type shop, that used parts that it bought from different companies. That could explain the Keilwerth looking bits, the Kohlert looking bits, etc.

BTW, I do have a JK stencil in my gallery, that doesn't have the company logo. It is a Götz alto. The seller seemed sure it was a JK. Now he could have been wrong about that, but if he is correct, then it is possible that not all early JK horns had the identifiers. It opens up some interesting possibilities.

 

[pete]

My post just got eaten, so I'll recap:

While I think that Max Keilwerth is very close, it's got a few major (IMO) differences, specifically with the bell keys.

Take a look at picture 1. The Atlantic has bell keys that have a "brace" at about a 45-degree angle to the long keyguard wire. Picture #2 is a Max Keilwerth Harway from your website, Helen. The brace is at a 90 degree angle. While that may sound nitpicky, it's really a good way of telling horns apart, especially on Germanic horns. (Compare, for instance, the Robert Adler horns, which have a 45 degree angle in the opposite direction from the Atlanic.)

The bell-to-body brace that's on "my" Atlantic and on Helen's President, above, is, unfortunately, very common on Germanic horns. At least a half-dozen other manufacturers had the exact same ones.

 

[pete]

And I did remember correctly. Someone else has seen a Buescher Atlantic.

 

[Helen]

I'm not saying it's a M.K. or a J.K. horn at all. I agree with the subtle differences being important Pete.

There were all kinds of small cottage industry shops around that made horns. I believe many of them have had their histories lost over time. I'm wondering if it originated out of one of them. Some of them may have bought some of their parts from established manufacturers in the region, or, borrowed heavily in design ideas from those manufacturers. We see it in Italian horns all the time. My Gallotone is an excellent example of just such an mix and match horn. A bit of Orsi, and some R&C.

BTW, I haven't seen the bell to body brace found on the President on any other saxes. It's interesting that you have. I assumed that it was unique, since it was a larger, double ended version of the posts.

 

[pete]

BTW, I haven't seen the bell to body brace found on the President on any other saxes. It's interesting that you have. I assumed that it was unique, since it was a larger, double ended version of the posts.

That, along with some other things that seem to crop up often, is one of the reasons I've hypothesized that there were only a couple of sources for saxophone bodies. Keywork? That can be different.

ATM, I'm having way too much fun adding horns to my gallery, but I may return to the topic of "similarities between Germanic horns."