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Bass modifications

Due to the ah, more mature nature of the people on this forum, this is going on here first.
Really it has Gandalfe, Merlin, Helen etc and I know you guys are more active here and since this is about a bass, well, who better.
So here's what's going on
I have been wanting another bass since I sold my Conn a while ago. I read Helens thing on the Buescher low G bass and decided I wanted one.
When I heard Gandalfe's recording of Mr. Grinch, I knew that I wasn't going to get a contrabass since I'm still in school and transport and $ are a hindrance, but I knew I needed a low A. I was thinking about it, and as a tuba player for much of my gigs *marching band and brass ensembles etc.* I know that they play a LOT of low G's, but a decent amount of low F's.

Hence the low G.
Problems:
It's hideous
The key length from low G was insane.

Key dilemma:
I talked with a buddy of mine about this extensively because he wanted to send a bari to low E. Which is insane btw. I have a contrabass clarinet to low C, no bass unfortunately, but it was good enough for this.
I was thinking about how it could go lower. Where your fingers were and what they needed to do. A clarinet going to low C is equivalent to a sax going to low G, so it makes sense, to me at least. From a keying standpoint, the Buescher didn't make sense. With the Ab on the left and the G on the right, it just didn't click. They can't have anything on the left thumb because it was otherwise occupied, but you had low Eb with the right pinky, and low D on the left pinky. I decided the low Ab and G were going on the right thumb and have the G actuate the Ab similar to the Bb actuating the B on the table. The odds of playing the Ab were slim, so it was one less key to worry about.
This way, you could have the low A down like on a bari and just flip the low G in and voi la. Should be relatively easy

Aesthetics:
I was talking to J'Elle Stainer about the low G. Gilberto said that the low G was ugly since it looked like a Chimney and the low A basses were the most aesthetically pleasing. I realized awefully quick that it made sense and I agreed with him.
So how do I get a low G horn to look like a low A horn? Extend the body.
Now I didn't want to make this a manufacturing nightmare because I'm trying to keep the cost down, so making a new bow was out of the question. I knew the Eb C and C# needed to end up on the body, but I didn't know how it was going to get there.
I was talking to the same buddy and he send me some pictures of the low A bells Lance was doing. He was cutting them and putting a small piece of brass in to expand it to keep the conical bore going. I emailed Lance and he said he could do this to the bow. There's that problem.

Low G key:
One of the biggest problems on Bari's and especially basses is key whip. I hate the Selmer Low A mechanism, but Yamahas is much better, so hopefully that will work out. Extending the body leaves the G and Ab keys about as long as the low Bb key would normally be, which should minimize key whip problems and allow it to stay in better regulation.

He's going to add E F and F# keys to it, which will be nice albeit novelty notes, but nice to have a full range up top.

Any other suggestions, please let me know.
 
A clarinet going to low C is equivalent to a sax going to low G, so it makes sense, to me at least.
If the sax in question was pitched in Eb. The bass sax is a Bb horn, as is a Bb contrabass clarinet.

I have a contrabass clarinet to low C
Straight or paperclip?

The main problem with a saxophone having a keyed range to low G (or lower) is how the sax is built. If you curved it more like a curved (or "paperclip") contrabass/contralto clarinet, you end up with something that is much more manageable in size, which is one of the points behind Eppelsheim's Tubax instruments -- or Sax's original designs for lower horns. I think you could then add more keywork, like the low C paperclip contra clarinets. And tubing, of course :).

Now, I'd think it'd be easier to extend the range on a Tubax, but you still have the problem of where to put all that keywork. While the low A on a sax is traditionally under either the left or right hand thumbrest, I have seen it to the left of the low C# key (Weltklang baris). If you did that, you'd have easy space for two keys (Ab, G) under the right hand thumbrest: the key rods don't have to be one-piece.

I'd like to see pictures of the project, saxplayer!
 
I meant in relative range.
So an octave below the G on sax and C on clarinets.
Not in sounding range.
My contra is a paperclip, so I hear you on the extra bends, but that's difficult to do on a standard bass and I don't have the time or energy to do what Eppelsheim did and start form scratch. I figure the body doesn't have to be altered much, so that's a huge hurdle.
I think putting an extension on either side of the bow will solve a lot of problems.

The plan now is to place the keys like they would normally be on a low A bari, Yamaha style, so that would function as normal. The Ab and G would be disconnected from everything except themselves and be next to the right thumbrest like the paperclips.

The only way to curve the horn more is to either tip the bell over, which works on clarinets because they have the insanely small bore, but wouldn't work on a sax because the bells are mammoth sizes, or to take more out of the upper curl. I was thinking today and using a french wrap may be better since the neck is curled that much farther. The G extension should leave the horn around the same length as the American wraps, but leave the neck far enough down to where it won't be too bottom heavy. If worse comes to worse with the french wraps we can move the neck even farther down if we have to. I was kicking myself I didn't think of this sooner because Saxquest had a Noblet that would have been PERFECT but alas it sold, and I don't know when one like that will come up again. Fingers crossed, right now it'll be good to just have anything.
 
Got a horn. Vintage Buescher made Martin as discussed in other thread.

Need help here though.
I'm debating over finish options and engraving. I'd like to black nickel plate it with nickel silver keys, but I can't find anyone stateside that is able to black nickel plate. I can find black chrome plating, but since it's so hard, and this thing is probably going to get a ding or two, that isn't the best option for finish.
Horn is currently silver, but it's pretty ugly and the extensions are going to be made out of brass, so it'll have to have something done.
We can either silver plate the whole thing then lacquer it, and I'd prefer it to be a satin silver with brass or gold plated keys and accents, and polished islands for the engraving, but that can start getting pricey since it would have to be shipped from Florida to Indiana for the engraving then back for the overhaul and would risk damage.
Other option is to strip the silver and give a brushed patina brass look, which I think would be pretty sweet as well.

Engraving
I want something pretty epic looking, and was looking at either a reared up lion, or phoenix or something. Phoenix was looking promising until I realized that both Yamaha and Selmer have done these recently... Still may be an option but I was looking for something original.

Thanks guys

Opinions on everything would be great.
 
How wouldn't that clash with the body though?
Don't know if you have seen the pics yet, but here's a couple. It's gonna need a lot of TLC to get the body looking good in the original silver...




And shouldn't you be working?

I'm stuck on bedrest with this bummed leg now. Is bloody miserable
 
I have $650 from Andersons, plus a whole lotta shipping. Martinmods is going to try to find someone near him and see if they can come in cheaper.
I just didn't know if anyone had a silver vs brass preference or if it was worth the hunt to find someone to black nickel plate it.

Any engraving suggestions? I know you had the Venus stuff done on your bass. I'm looking to go all out on this, and have about $6k total set aside for it. $3k for the horn, $1200 for the modifications and overhaul *If I decide not to plate, any brass finish option is included*, and the rest for engraving and plating options
 
I'd first try cleaning the thing and seeing if some sort of dip could restore the original finish. I say this because a while back, I bought an awful-looking silver-plated TT alto from eBay and when Rhueben Allen did the overhaul, he "dipped" it. It turned out great - Rheuben said it was the nicest TT alto he'd seen.

As far as any metal extensions, maybe you could have those re-plated in a similar finish. I understand the dangers in shipping such a monster - my opinion is that any shipping adds more risk than I'd be willing to take. DAVE
 
Yours does...
Ya I'm single. Still in college. Horns>food Also have options if needed for loans from dad. He has seen that all of my horn flips have made me money and said that if I need help on a horn he's willing to help out. I was able to sell a couple of instruments I didn't need to fund this thing though, so it works out quite nicely.
 
I'd first try cleaning the thing and seeing if some sort of dip could restore the original finish. I say this because a while back, I bought an awful-looking silver-plated TT alto from eBay and when Rhueben Allen did the overhaul, he "dipped" it. It turned out great - Rheuben said it was the nicest TT alto he'd seen.
A very good point. I do remember that the silver was worn off some of the keys on your bass, tho.

You could always take the route of a couple other players here and use automotive paint and just get the keys plated. I dunno how much that might save you over a full silver replate, but I guarantee that'd be striking, even if you didn't get any engraving done.

We expect "work in progress" pics! (Truly, if you start with pics now, you won't kick yourself later and say, "I wish I took a pic of that".)
 
Update
Horn arrived at MartinMods unscathed. He's moving to Seattle. So when it's done, if any of you guys are in the area, let me know and I'll see if we can get you out to see it. Gandalfe I know you're close, and if Helen makes another roadtrip out, by all means, would love to get your opinions on it.

Case...
This thing needs a case...
This thing REALLY needs a case...

It didn't have one to begin with, which isn't a problem because from what I understand, the originals blow, and I doubt it could be modified anyway. So, what'd I do. Well I called the usual suspects.
SKB
ProTec
Gator
Walt Johnson
Glen Kronkhite
Reunion Blues

Not thrilled about the last two, but it was the order I called. Not a one is willing to even try. Which surprised me from Walt and Glen, but I understand that this is a huge project. I know Manning Custom will make one, but I was hoping for more of a protec style case, and Manning prefers to have the whole horn in the shop for fitting...
Lance wanted to make a case, but it would be like a SaxPak and that is far from what I want. He already has a big enough problem with the horn, and the case is gonna be a bear.

Anyone know where I may be able to find a custom case builder to make me one? I emailed BAM but haven't heard back yet and doubt I will. I'm almost tempted to try to make my own, which I still may do, but wanted to get some outside opinions first.
 
I'm game and so's Jay Easton I'm betting. Paul Woltz would luv to give it a blow too. Sounds like a party in the making and I have a music studio. :cool:

Helen, based on your blog post last week, maybe you'd consider selling your behemoth case so that you could spring for the fitted one you pointed out from IW for vintage American bass saxes? If I'm speakin' out of turn, you can just throw a rug at me.

I have a new Mason case that might be modifiable. If so I could probably cut the price for you so that I can get that way cool fitted case for my Buescher. (Durn it, now I'm way excited to meet Lance and give the horn a blow.)
 
so got a brainstorm last night

Custom make one... Shouldn't be all that hard. Get a MONSTER like piano hinge. Couple latches, and go to town. Wrap the horn in a plastic sheet covered in pam. Build a wood frame the approx. size of the case so the foam only goes to 3/4 the height, then 1/4 the height of the horn. Let it set. Remove from horn *this could be the woogity part since it's expandable foam, have to hope not to yank keys off and what not, but that's going to be thought out better later*.
Shape said foam in the general contour of the horn. Cover the top side in plastic, coat with fiberglass. Remove shell. Paint. Rivet latches and hinge in. Glue the foam back in and make cutout for neck and mouthpiece etc. Voila, instant Walt Johnson Case, for considerably less. Now the hard part is going to be contouring the foam properly, getting the seam on the fiberglass to fit properly and all that jazz, also finding the right foam. I'd like to get the squishy stuff that's in my Selmer Flight case since I figure that'd be more forgiving, but need to check into that a bit more. Should probably get in touch with Paul Woltz and Helen to see if building a case like Helens with the blocks is better of if a full contour is feasible and which parts need to be supported most.

Just got off the phone with Manning Custom and they said it shouldn't be all that difficult, just time consuming... Problem is I can't start this until I get the horn, which may be a while so it'll just be brainstorming for the next bit
 
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