Buying a Used Sax: Top 10 things to check

Gandalfe

Striving to play the changes in a melodic way.
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Okay, I have had this kind of discussion before but we have some very savvy musicians and techs on this forum so here is my top 10:

1. What shape is the neck in?
2. Are there missing parts?
3. Look for signs of soldering, repair, patching, dent work, and check for new dents.
4. Is it original lacquer? If relac, is it a bad job?
5. Is body straight?
6. Intonation on some horns can be odd in the palm keys, check it.
7. Is there a lot of play on the key rods?
8. Is there a lot of play on keys that are on pivots?
9. What shape is the case in? Will it need replacement (extra cost)
10. Condition of pads and how they seal. This can be expensive.
 
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I'd add ...

* Any damage near toneholes?
* Any damaged toneholes? (They should be round.)
* Leaking solder around toneholes?
* Any filed down toneholes? (Particularly if they're supposed to be rolled.)
* Any sharp edges on toneholes?

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For relacquers, first I'd playtest it to within an inch of its life, but engraving should be crisp, there shouldn't be any red goo left about or swirls in the lacquer.

Note that almost all instruments pre-1925 were not available in lacquer and almost all US-made instruments pre-1935 were not available in lacquer. I've also seen more than one pre-1955 Conn overhauled with lacquer body and nickel keywork. That's just wrong.

Replating doesn't adversely affect tone.

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If the keywork makes a lot of noise, that means swedging the horn and/or replacing corks and felts. If the keywork isn't springy, that may mean replacing all the springs.

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I've seen a few horns with replacement parts from other instruments. That can also be wrong.

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The neck should be original and not have a pickup soldered on. Some horns have a neck with a serial number that matches the body.

(As an aside, there are remanufactured and/or custom necks for a variety of saxophones. They are expensive.)

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Another note on pads: if there are resonators on them, they really should be the same across most of the horn (altissimo keywork may not have resonators).
 
Adding my two yen:

4. Is it original lacquer? If relac, is it a bad job?
Has the horn been buffed? A bad relac is fixable if a chem-strip was performed beforehand. A buffed horn...maybe they preserved the engraving but it is hard to assess unengraved areas. No matter how nice the relacquering was done, be cautious.
10. Condition of pads and how they seal. This can be expensive.
Roopads - even if they seal prior to shipping (assuming this is necessary), they are prone to leaks that occur in transit. I am basing this on experiences with sellers whose word I trust.
The neck should be original and not have a pickup soldered on.
Selmer and King sold horns where the original neck had pickups. In that case, it may be OK to just leave the pickup as is.
 
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Roopads - even if they seal prior to shipping (assuming this is necessary), they are prone to leaks that occur in transit. I am basing this on experiences with sellers whose word I trust.
I have used white roopads on my personal instrument and several customers saxes and have found them to be among the best quality pads available. I would suggest that if a saxophone with roo pads has leaks after being sold and shipped that the cause would be something other than the fault of the pads.

The usual suspects in this case would be:

-Pads are poorly installed to begin with.
-Pads seated with too much pressure and too deep an indentation.
-Use of unstable and compressible materials at regulation linkages.
-Keys being bent slightly during transit.

I have not tried the black roo pads with harder felt nor do I plan to for a variety of reasons.

John
 
Jimmy Scimonetti (Jim's son) did the overhaul on my Yanagisawa S992 a couple of years, using black roo-pads and smooth domed metal resos. No stickies and the thing plays superbly. DAVE
 
As mentioned, I have bad experiences with roopads. Some techs that I have spoken to say the same. In one case, before I even mentioned it the tech asked me if the horn had roopads. I guess people either swear by them or dislike them and obviously, not all roos may be the same.
 
As mentioned, I have bad experiences with roopads. Some techs that I have spoken to say the same. In one case, before I even mentioned it the tech asked me if the horn had roopads. I guess people either swear by them or dislike them and obviously, not all roos may be the same.
Any sax I have repadded gets white Roo, exclusively. I don't have local schmoe do my horns, not to say he isn't good at what he does, but Roo needs a better than average tech to install properly. If a tech is suspect of Roo, I look twice at their work - not to say some good ones don't care for Roo, but I do . (the customer)
 
No schmoe for sure, but I hope you understand that I will not add a name. Anyway, I could be wrong (a remote possibility :)), but given my experiences, I would not recommend buying a horn with roos unless one can try first. Admittedly, I haven't tried white ones.
 
The black roos have a comparitively hard felt backing and the leather is dyed black. As in the world of flute repadding a "harder" pad is less forgiving when it touches the tonehole than one with felt that gives a bit under pressure. For this reason the black roo pads are more challenging to install. They demand a perfectly level tonehole and must be seated perfectly to work properly. The harder surface gives them a solid "pop" when the key is closed which of course makes them more noisy. Supposedly some "rock" players like that feel and sound. I do not.

The white roo pads having a medium dense felt need to be installed with care as well but unlike the black roos, they will accommodate minute changes without developing a leak. The reason I like the white roos is how flat and round they come from the manufacturer, how quiet they play, and how they do not stick. In my experience the white roos are easier to install than other brands of "moo" pads that are not as good a quality.

John
 
As John eluded to, "moo" pads actually come in different qualities in in relation to thickness of the skin itself (excluding backing, felt, roundness, thickness consistency, etc).

About 10 yrs ago I was getting some misc Moo pads from a particular wel known supplier from time to time. Then all of a sudden the thickness of the skin really got thin. Way too thin. It was easy to damage/cut the skin.

But the places that only cater to repair places usually have good quality pads. Some also have some very thick skinned (haha) pads, if i recall properly, called pneumatic leather which comes with hard felt and is difficult to install like the Black Roos but last a very long time.

But pad quality and installation is reallly unknown to the player.

Also Floating pads is the normal method of adjusting the flatness of the pad in relation to the tonehole. But sometimes techs will lift an edge of the pad up .. usually not a problem unless way too much which could - depending upon the gluing method , cause the glue/shellac to get stringy. And if it dries quickly the pad glue may then "crunch" under ones' finger and then "readjust" its seating while playing. Of coruse, some use way too little glue too.

In other words, the quality installation really determines how well the pads last and how well they seal. But this is unknown to a buyer unless they know the quality of the people that did the pad installation.
 
#1 of the top ten things to check

who is selling the sax?

You might be able to check the horn's pedigree, but knowing the seller and the seller's experience with the sax is tops imho.
 
ah yes, tis true, LL, that would be a prime advantage.....but how often do we really know the seller?
 
There aren't enough good technitions and those out there aren't making enough to attract the best and brightest going forward. Those stellar techs that I know have huge backlogs. It is not the kind of job that just anyone could/should do.
 
RE, Relacquers & JSnola's comments about his horn:

I'm going to suggest that you possibly "lucked out" on the horn: it's a relacquer and it plays well. However, I definitely wouldn't call that the rule, I'd call that the exception. We could also talk about how the horn might not necessarily have been a "relacquer", as the Conn New Wonder "Transitional" was available in bare brass and could have been lacquered at a later date. I also know that a "relacquer" can be done without stripping much metal -- however, it's still something that screams out, "Lots of play-testing needs to be done!"

If you're a beginner, first you shouldn't be buying vintage and second, if you're getting used (other than overhauled, warrantied instruments), you should have a player that's better than you playtesting the horn before you buy. It's kinda like me saying that that 1975 Harley Softtail is junk because I got on it and fell off after 1.3 seconds because I have zero experience riding motorcycles.

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RE, appreciation of repair work/quality of repair:

First, my opinion is that, primarily, the repair(s) made are to make the horn into better shape than it was before and "overhaul" suggests that the horn is now in perfect mechanical condition. I really do not care if you use the highest quality materials and craftsmanship on my horn if it still isn't working right when you're done.

Second, I know the tech is constrained by the price agreed to. If the person brings in a horn for an overhaul, the tech looks it over and says, "It needs X. It will cost $Y to fix X" and I counter with, "Well, could you use lower quality materials, so I'd have to pay $Y-a bunch?" the tech has to decide whether or not he can cut those corners for me, knowing that it might not be as good a repair job.

As an example, I'm a tech: a computer tech. If the user says to me, for instance, "I've got a virus infection. However, you've only got two hours to fix it" the computer will NOT be in as good condition when I'm finished than if I had four hours to fix it because you haven't given me enough time to do as quality of a job as possible. Minimal time = minimal repair.

Now, I am NOT qualified to rate instrument technicians, other than by what other people say: are the majority of folks happy with the repairs that were done? Are there complaints with the BBB (or equivalent)? How about with NAPBIRT? That's how I can rate 'em. I AM qualified to rate other computer techs, for instance, and I can tell you how competent they are or not by the work they've performed. However, results still count for something: if our junior tech fixes a computer in the same amount of time it would have taken me, but uses a different method, is there any real difference in quality? Hey, the junior tech's obviously not as good as I am.

However, this is straying into the range of, "How do we judge how well a horn is repaired?" and that's really not the topic of this thread. I encourage you to open one, because it'd be interesting (to me) to see what is posted: we've got a lot of woodwind repair techs here.

The upthrust is that if I'm looking at a couple used horns of equal overall quality and price and I HAVE to buy one -- and I only have a budget to BUY a horn, not to get one overhauled -- I'll get the one that plays the best, not the one that can be overhauled to be the best.
 
I remember when I started band back in 1959 (7th grade) it was on a Holton Collegiate (I think if my diminished memory serves me) relacquered tenor....$150.00....but the horn came from a very reputable music store too whose owner would not have sold a bad horn.

it played good & served me well for 3 yrs til I switched to alto in high school on a new Mark VI. of course times were different back then too, I think people did better work & had a better ethic, IMO. as for today, well....I dunno, I've seen a few relacquered Big Bell Bueschers that looked great, but I would wanna play em first I think before I bought em unless I knew who had em & who had done the work. if the price was low enough I'd take a chance anyway, lol.

I don't think that someone who is experienced in relacquering would take enough metal off a horn to make that much difference in the sound even if they buffed it and were careful (and I assume they would be)....do they still use that method or has most everyone gone to chemical strip?

bottom line for me is that if I'm buying off ebay from someone I don't know I'd prefer the horn to be original whether it has any lacquer left or not.
 
The question comes down to, "Would you, personally, buy a relacquered horn if you couldn't playtest it?" A secondary question would be, "If you know it's a relacquered horn, would you pay the same price as a non-relacquer in the same condition?"

My answer for both is "no". The market also answers "no" to the second question.
 
heck I'd buy a relac'd SBA as long as the engraving is nice and if i saw it. I was trying that a few years ago when I had the spare $$. Now they are all priced outta this world.

I have no problem with relac'd instruments as long as it's done well. For instance, Ill be sending a Selmer Paris cornet to Anderson's Plating for relacquering (and piston work) .. I trust their work. I would not take it to the corner music store though.

matter of fact a clarinet customer of mine had his Buffet SuperDynaaction alto and tenor relacquered at WWBW - who farmed it out to someone else. Very nice work. Beautiful horns in the end.
 
For instance, Ill be sending a Selmer Paris cornet to Anderson's Plating for relacquering (and piston work) .. I trust their work. I would not take it to the corner music store though.
My Buescher Trutone silver clarinet had to be sent back to Anderson's because the plating peeled almost immediately. That's more about prep than the plating and one of my tech's had done the prep. Still something to keep an eye on.
 
My Buescher Trutone silver clarinet had to be sent back to Anderson's because the plating peeled almost immediately. That's more about prep than the plating and one of my tech's had done the prep. Still something to keep an eye on.

True. I let them do all the prep, and all the other work .... top to bottom.

with clarinet keywork I send them all the keywork and they buff and prep and plate and send back. They actually (supposedly) can do the entire overhaul top to bottom too (but the other part is my job).
 
well, I'm just speaking for myself......when it comes to buying off ebay from someone I do not know for a horn with no return that I cannot play or look at before I buy I'm not going to buy a relac unless it's a really super looking horn & it's cheap. I may be passing up a great horn, but I don't know that. if the seller can tell me who did the relac then that may change everything.

ebay's a crap shoot at best without taking what I see as an additional risk especially when it's my meager dollars that's involved.

take for instance though the horn you have now on ebay, JSNola, that silver tenor.....that's a beautiful horn and I know who did the work on it. were I in the market for that kind of horn & could afford it I wouldn't hesitate one instant to bid on that one, but then I know you & your reputation. it makes a difference....at least to me.

you can fix anything you buy, I can't without spending a lot of money depending on what all it's got to have; that said though, I have seen ebay stores with relacquered Bueschers that look as good as a mint horn of the same make & model & they want near or as much for it as the original mint one. they still had em too the last time I looked.

I do a lot of agonizing before I buy a horn off ebay & before it's over I may be so crazy by then I'll turn around & do just the opposite, lol.
 
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