CE Winds Alpha Alto Review

[CE Winds]

Hey Pete,

Thanks for the thorough review. I didn't realize it was here until late last night reviewing our accounts online.

I do want to clarify a few things, I suppose I should have been more clear on this before the sax was sent off, or even before you received it, or even posted a review, of my expectations of your review. My initial thoughts were that I was looking for a playability review, and the set up, and general value, vs. a review on it's construction. This is not an item that would be shipped to a customer without them knowing about the details of the sax. Thinking back now I could have done a better job communicating with you, or selecting a full retail (A Stock) priced item to send... but really due to the demand that we have seen recently it was tough getting a sax to you to review.

The item we shipped was a B Stock item, meaning that we would have sold it at a discount, because of the things you mentioned. (scratches, red spotting, etc). These things would have been disclosed to the potential buyer as items that do not affect the playability of the sax, or even the warranty, but that there are noticeable things that warrant a discount.

OK. I'll read again and process the rest of the postings and work on a response. This is good stuff though, we can become biased to our instruments and having an outside review is always refreshing, and really helps us identify the areas where we need to get better at. Our ultimate goal is to be known as a company that offers a great product, at a great price, and backs it up with good communication and customer service. It's all about growth for us.

Thanks Pete for your time, and looking forward to reading more. We will also post again.

Peace,

Brian
CE Winds

 

[jbtsax]

Thanks for weighing in Brian. I have a couple of questions.

- Can you tell us the name of the tech who is doing your set-ups before the sax is shipped to the customer?

-Are all of your saxes completely gone through after they come from the factory before being shipped to the customer?

-Are repair and replacement parts available in all finishes for the saxes you sell?

-If so how does one go about getting the parts price and ordering information?

Thanks again.

 

[pete]

Hey Pete,

Thanks for the thorough review. I didn't realize it was here until late last night reviewing our accounts online.

I'm not quite finished.

I do want to clarify a few things, I suppose I should have been more clear on this before the sax was sent off, or even before you received it, or even posted a review, of my expectations of your review. My initial thoughts were that I was looking for a playability review, and the set up, and general value, vs. a review on it's construction. This is not an item that would be shipped to a customer without them knowing about the details of the sax. Thinking back now I could have done a better job communicating with you, or selecting a full retail (A Stock) priced item to send... but really due to the demand that we have seen recently it was tough getting a sax to you to review.

The item we shipped was a B Stock item, meaning that we would have sold it at a discount, because of the things you mentioned. (scratches, red spotting, etc). These things would have been disclosed to the potential buyer as items that do not affect the playability of the sax, or even the warranty, but that there are noticeable things that warrant a discount.

I'm sorry. I'm a-gonna call you out on several points:

First, if it's a discounted "B stock" item, why is there a pricetag on it -- and that price is higher than what's currently on your website? Hey, I commented on that several days ago.

Second, even if the horn is the best playing saxophone in the world, if its construction is poor, it might be a good idea to look at a different instrument.

OK, it's possible that you might have sent me a sax that had the upper and lower stack keywork ripped off, then you had a tech resolder the keywork back on. I doubt it though. When I say that there looks to be a bit of solder overrun, an implication could be that the quality control process isn't that great. When I say that there's a noticeable bump on the bow-to-bell connection, you could get the same implication.

Shouldn't someone that reviews a horn look at the construction of the horn? In this instance, that's like buying a car that's got a great engine but the body's rusted out.

Second, if I'm supposed to review the "set-up," I'm going to review more than just whether the key heights are even and all the pads seal. I'm going to note if there's extra goo on the horn and there's oil residue. I'm also going to look at key fit, corks and felts, springs, etc. Add to this that the "set up" is supposed to be a $150 value: I see some corks that are rather haphazardly placed on the horn and I see some adhesive over-run on some pads. Remember: you said you compare this horn to a Yamaha 475. My Yamahas were clean when I got them, even the 23s.

============

At this moment, there are two positives I've seen, but they come with big "buts" (OK, "howevers," but you have to throw in a Sir Mix-A-Lot reference, every now and then):

* The $699 price is competitive with other "house brand" horns, if you keep it at that price. If the metal mouthpiece really is nice (haven't tried it, yet), it's an even better deal. HOWEVER, Dave Kessler has a house-brand for $725 -- and it also includes a mouthpiece (which they value almost the same as yours) and professional setup. Dave's been active on SOTW and here for a long while and I know many, many folks that have dealt with him and have played his "house brand" horns. In other words, would I recommend an Alpha over one of Dave's horns? How 'bout a used horn of equivalent value from other folks that are well-known and well-respected?

* The horn is really easy to blow. HOWEVER, I think the intonation is a bit suspect. That's waiting on two things: me to have a chance to test it with a digital tuner and my wife having a chance to test it, with or without a tuner, so I have a second opinion. Tomorrow or Monday, I'd say, is when I'll test that. Sorry: I work on Saturdays!

I'll also toss in a "neutral": all the pads seal and I didn't notice much key play. The only thing I didn't like isn't your fault: the low Bb and my formerly mangled left pinky. There's also a "HOWEVER" here, too: I expect this from a new horn. That, or I expect to be able to send back the horn and have it re-adjusted so it is perfect. Using another car analogy, it's like when the "check engine" light came on in my Mustang, 6 months after I bought it: I took it to the dealer and he made it right. For free. Same day, too. That's why I say that this is a "neutral" comment. It's different if I say to you, "Hey. My left pinky isn't as strong as most people's. Please adjust the key height and spring tension. Do that for free." That'd be unreasonable -- but if you did it, you'd win a lot of points.

As a final comment, any review has a lot of subjectiveness. A good review will say why something was good or bad. I've not said anything about the tone (I will, eventually) because that's purely subjective. Intonation isn't. Quality of construction isn't.

You've also got some "intangibles" with the CE Winds horns, with your various programs. I also want to address those in the final review. Those can sway your buying decision, too.

I'll try to wrap up my review tomorrow. My e-mail is about 80% fixed, now, so if any of y'all want to get hold of me, please just use the forum's Private Message feature.

Thanks!

 

[pete]

So, it's now day 1,356 of testing and I realized something: I'm testing a CE Winds Alpha and a Selmer Omega. I have truly covered the entire range of saxophones.

I practiced on the Alpha for about an hour, in front of a digital tuner. At the start of my playing, the low end was very flat. Middle to altissimo was a tad sharp. At the end of my playing, it was much more consistent, throughout: a middle D and up were slightly (2 to 5 cents) sharp and C and lower were either right on or a little flat (again, 2 to 5 cents). However, the real problem was still the chromatic fingerings: one-and-one or side Bb, side C, F#. They were rather sharp. My opinion is that the key heights are a bit too high. I think if I played the horn for a longer while, I could probably get everything in tune -- or have a tech look at the horn and do some tweaking with key heights.

I switched to my wife's 1981 Selmer Omega. The feel of the horn is definitely less ergonomic than the CE Winds horn, but that may also be a matter of taste. I can say that I was more consistent in my intonation and I find the horn even easier blowing; noticeably so, even just picking up the horn out of the case and not doing anything to it.

As mentioned, I play-tested with my mouthpiece of choice, a Sigurd Rascher hard-rubber 'piece, which has a very large chamber. Using the mouthpiece on both the Alpha and Omega, I got a kind of medium-dark tone that was pleasing to my ear (at least). One of the knocks on the Yamahas, other than the Custom models, is that they're fairly bright -- and they're still somewhat bright with my Rascher. I'd not use the word "bright" to describe the Alpha and I think I can say that the tone is fairly "Selmer-esque." On this, of course, YMMV depending on the kind of mouthpiece you use. I didn't bother with the CE Winds mouthpieces as I'm kinda wary about the "hard rubber" one and I don't care for metal mouthpieces. My wife will give it a toot with her 1981-vintage Selmer C*.

I also did do a couple side-by-side mechanical comparisons between the Alpha and Omega. I mentioned earlier that I thought that the RH thumbrest is up a bit higher than I was accustomed to. It does look like the thumbrest on the Omega is a tad lower. This is not necessarily a bad thing for studentia that have considerably smaller hands than me, but it certainly adds to the "different" feel I mentioned. The Omega also has plate ("ribbed") construction and I wanted to see if there's as much solder over-run. There is some, but not as much. You've got to remember, though, that the Omega was Selmer USA's pro model and cost $1500 new. The Alpha costs less than half that, especially if you factor in inflation.

So, there's only one test remaining: my wife doing some play-testing. After that, I'll wrap up this review and rewrite it.

 

[pete]

... And now, the final bit ....

My wife has an extremely rare day off today, so she was around and finally gave the horn a toot.

1. She also complained abut iffy intonation in the lower stack. However, she also mentioned if she played it longer, she might be able to get used to it.
2. My wife's about 5'3" and has small hands. She said that she didn't particularly care for the ergonimics of the horn, particularly the lower stack. She also said that the feel reminded her of vintage instruments, so if you like that feel, there ya go.
3. She also thought the horn was realtively easy blowing, except for the bell keys. I mentioned, earlier, that I had some issues making the low Bb close completely because of my pinky. I guess I can now say it wasn't all my fault. My opinion is that the little ergonomic twist in the lower stack makes it just a bit difficult to close the lower keycups completely.
4. She liked the tone and also said it compared favorably to her Omega. She still likes her horn better, though.

So, what kind of conclusions can I come to?

* The CE Winds Alpha is a Chinese-made "house brand." That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it also means that your only point of contact is CE Winds, themselves -- or a franchise if they open more stores. That's one of the points JBT is trying to make with the question of, "What's the parts availability?" However, I've never had a problem with a horn that I owned requiring having a part replaced, just your usual spring fixing or pad replacing. My wife has, though. I've had friends that have. It's just something that you should keep in mind.

* The price is "OK" in a comparison of other Chinese-made house brands with plate-on-body ("ribbed") construction. I also do think that ribbed construction is more robust for student-level horns and is something you should get, if it's available. However, and many others have made this point, many professional models have or have had post-on-body construction. One that I can pull off the top of my head would be the Martin Committee models.

* I don't think the build quality is up to Yamaha squality-control standards at all, especially with the solder flaws, scratches, etc. I've mentioned.

* The Alpha does play quite easily with, in my opinion, a nicer tone color than a Yamaha 23, but not as good as a 475. Inotnation on the Alpha takes some getting used to and/or needs some creative hey-height adjustments to get the intonation spot-on.

* I do rather like the case, though. It seems fairly well padded, even if it's not a hard case. You could make the argument that a student would rather carry something that's as light as this, thus will "remember" to bring home his horn and practice. However, as it's NOT a hard case, it won't stand up to as much beating.

So, here's a conclusion:

* Would I recommend the horn for students that have to have a new horn? Probably not. I don't think it'd be a bad starter horn, but I'm concerned about the build quality and parts replacement.
* Would I recommend this horn over a used Yamaha 23 that's been overhauled? If they were the same price, yes. A used Yamaha will probably be less than this horn, though, or you should keep looking until you find one that's less.
* Is this horn the same quality, build-, intonation- or tone-wise, of a YAS-475? Absolutely not.

Now, here's the thing: I'm impressed enough with how the horn plays to want to try a CE Winds model that's "better" than this horn, e.g. an "advanced intermediate" or even "pro." Those have a better comparison on price -- $1937 for a Yamaha 475 and $1750 for the CE Winds Pro Series. The Pro Series might also be a higher quality horn than this Alpha. However, the Kessler Custom "Handmade" horn is $1595 and is really pretty .... Hey, Dave! You wanna send me one to try?

 

[pete]

The review that I'll post. I'll try for pics, tomorrow.

==========

Make: CE Winds
Model: Alpha BL (student/intermediate)
Pitch: Eb Alto
Finish: Lacquer
Built in: China
Case: Semi-rigid, form fitting.
Accessories: Unmarked plastic mouthpiece, CE Winds Gold Genesis metal mouthpiece, and ligatures. See below review for a note.
Price: $699 (current sale price; pricetag on the horn I tested: $749)

Look: 4
Feel: 7
Intonation: 5
Playability: 8
Tone: 7
Overall: 6.2

Best Features: Very easy blowing and a nice warm tone (with an appropriate mouthpiece)
Worst Feature: Construction and/or quality control

Summary: The Chinese-made CE Winds Alpha is a Mark VII/Super Action 80-styled horn that is intended to be a competitor to the Yamaha 475 (intermediate) series of horns. It fails to dethrone the Yamaha 475 in any way -- however, the Alpha is a nice enough horn that I'd think that the CE Winds' "step-up" model beyond the Alpha, the Pro Series, might be a good horn to try if your budget is in the $1500 to $2000 range.

Please note that after I had posted some negative comments regarding the horn I got, CE Winds posted on The Woodwind Forum that the horn I got was a "B Stock" item. With all due respect to the folks at CE Winds, I have a hard time believing this, as there was a $749 price tag on the horn (i.e. more than the standard price) and the horn, itself, was wrapped in plastic, as was the Gold Genesis mouthpiece. Additionally, one would think that if you want to impress a reviewer that you'd send a new instrument or at least tell him that you were sending a used horn before he got it.

On to the review:

This horn marks the first brand-new saxophone I've played with for an extended length of time in several years. It's also the first one that a distributor sent for me to review. I hope other distributors and/or manufacturers send me their horns so I can test them, too -- because it's fun getting new toys in the mail. So, I really, really wanted to do a good job on this review and give an overwhelmingly positive review of the Alpha. I'm sorry that I couldn't be more positive.

* Packaging. Quite decent, although the horn was missing some of the packing corks for keeping the keys held down that were mentioned in the CE Winds care guide/flyer that was in the case. For what it's worth, I've never had a horn damaged in shipping or knocked out of adjustment. Maybe I'm just really lucky.

* Construction and look. I was initially really impressed by the shiny, but I then took a closer look: the horn had three deep scratches by the left-side pants guard (the manual calls it the "back lap guard"), the CE Winds engraving on the bell is really poorly done, there's a small bump in the middle front on the bow-to-bell connector that you can harly see, but easily feel and there's a lot of solder over-run in the top stack plates. I also saw corks that were not exactly placed flush with keywork and saw some pads that had a bit of shellac or glue over-run on some of the pads. Additionally, here's a bit of orange-ish/red ick in several places on the bell, which I think might be polishing compound. There's also a bit of key oil and debris on some of the posts. In my opinion, this points to low quality control standards, so this point fails for comparing the horn to a Yamaha.

While you might think I'm being overly picky, CE Winds does say that they do a $150 Professional Setup on the horn (linky; you have to choose the drop-down for "lacquer" to see this). I'd expect more out of a $150 "set-up."

As offhandedly mentioned above, the horn has plate (or "ribbed," if you prefer) construction. That's where a key post is soldered to a plate and the plate is soldered to the horn, in contrast to post-on-body construction, where the key-post is soldered directly to the horn. The idea behind plate construction is that it's a bit more rugged than post construction. That's a good idea for a student horn.

* Keywork/Feel. When I picked up the horn, I found that the horn had an "egronomic" twist to the lower stack, which feels very Bundy II-esque and not like, say, my wife's 1981 Selmer Omega. After awhile, this didn't feel all that unusual. However, my wife felt that the twist made it more difficult for her to play (she has very small hands), which could mean that younger players will have more of a problem.

The Alpha does have an adjustable right-hand thumbrest. While my wife didn't have a problem with that, I had to crank it all the way to the right for it to contact my thumb properly (I have very large hands). I did a bit of comparison with the Omega and found that the thumbrest is in a slightly different position. Again, younger players probably won't notice the difference. Older players with larger hands will.

* Intonation. I noticed that there are some intonation irregularities, particularly in the lower stack notes in both octaves. The chromatic fingerings for things like C and F# seem to be less in tune than their normal counterparts
(oxo | ooo and xxx |oxo, respectively). When my wife played the horn after me, she noted the same problems. After I played the horn for an hour, I was able to get the tuning within + or - of about 5 cents, as registered on a digital tuner, on most notes -- with the exception of those chromatic fingerings. In my wife's case, though, she felt that the intonation was bad enough to skip the horn. As always, it could be that you need to spend a good deal of time with the horn to make it play properly and/or particular mouthpieces work better on this horn than others and that some further tweaking on key-heights is needed.

* Playability. This is definitely one place where I really liked the Alpha: it's very easy blowing. Harmonics are even easy to play.

* Tone. The major knock on Yamahas is that they sound very bright, although this is less apparent as you go up their model tree. I was very pleased with the tone of the Alpha, when using my Sigurd Rascher mouthpiece: it was a "medium dark" tone that was a nice change over the Yamahas. I could also hear this when my wife tested the horn with an older Selmer C* hard-rubber mouthpiece.

I did have problems reaching and playing the low B and Bb on the horn. I had my pinky finger broken a couple of times and I can't put too much power into it for pressing down the keys. My wife didn't mention any problems with the G# cluster, so it may be just me. However, a switch to a somewhat smaller cluster and/or a Bundy-like G# cluster might make the horn friendlier to folks with small hands.

===========

So, here's a conclusion:

* Would I recommend the horn for students that have to have a new horn? Probably not. I don't think it'd be a bad starter horn, but I'm concerned about the build quality and parts replacement.
* Would I recommend a NEW Alpha over a NEW Yamaha 23? Actually, I'd point the person in a different direction because of how much the 23 costs.
* Would I recommend this horn over a used Yamaha 23 that's been overhauled? I'd tell the person to keep looking, actually. A used Yamaha 23 will probably be less than this horn. Hey, I saw a Yamaha 575AL for sale for around $1000 recently.
* Is this horn the same quality, build-, intonation- or tone-wise, of a YAS-475? Absolutely not.

Now, here's the thing: I'm impressed enough with how the horn plays to want to try a CE Winds model that's "better" than this horn, e.g. an "advanced intermediate" or even "pro." Those have a better comparison on price -- $1937 for a Yamaha 475 and $1750 for the CE Winds Pro Series. The Pro Series might also be a higher quality horn than this Alpha. However, the Kessler Custom "Handmade" horn is $1595 and is really pretty .... Hey, Dave! You wanna send me one to try?

 

[CE Winds]

Thanks for weighing in Brian. I have a couple of questions.

- Can you tell us the name of the tech who is doing your set-ups before the sax is shipped to the customer?

-Are all of your saxes completely gone through after they come from the factory before being shipped to the customer?

-Are repair and replacement parts available in all finishes for the saxes you sell?

-If so how does one go about getting the parts price and ordering information?

Thanks again.

The tech we use primarily now for the Alpha Series and oversees the work done on them is Pro Band Repair owner Scott Robinson. He actually apprenticed under Saul Fromkin for many years when he lived in Sarasota. Very knowledgeable and has really helped us continue to develop the products, and we hope they will only get better from here on out. We are even considering completely assembling the saxes here in the US, under his supervision, but one step at a time.

Yes, every sax is gone over by our techs, and Scott oversees this process.

We do have repair parts available, we try to make available every finish. I know Scott and his team have access to the parts, I am not sure what they have available, but getting parts, even directly from the factory, has never been an issue, although it is rare at this point that we need parts post sale. We do not have a 'printed catalog' yet of parts, we are not at that point in our business where we do the volume to need one, and dealers across the world haven't seen our saxes enough to request one. I hope that over the next 5 years as the brand grows we will be able to produce a catalog for parts, like the parts catalog Yamaha has (that is sitting in my desk). The other part of me hopes there is no need and our saxes see little bench time over their lifetime, but with students it's inevitable.

If parts are needed, the person in need would contact us directly and we would find out what they needed. If we do not have it, we would contact the factory that makes the instruments and have them send us the specific part requested. Depending on what it is, and the time we need for it to arrive, we would be able to issue a loaner instrument to the student... but again, we have not had too many problems. Actually, recently a roller fell off of a sax while the player was jumping around on stage, and it was replaced with a Yamaha roller. The Alpha series is modeled after Yamaha.

Hope this answers all your questions for now.

 

[jbtsax]

Thanks Brian for that thorough and professional response to all of my questions. My suggestion to you is to put the essential parts of your response on your website for everyone to see. I believe it is especially important to let potential customers know IN WRITING the following information so they know EXACTLY what is being offered:

1. What "quality control" is done to each saxophone before it is shipped to the customer.
2. What parts are immediately available, how to order those parts, and what the shipping time is of parts that need to come from the factory.
3. The specific details of the 1 year and 3 year warranties that are advertised including:
- what is, and what is not covered
- where to send the saxophone for repairs covered under the warranty
- who pays the shipping costs when a saxophone is returned for repairs under the warranty
- whether or not CE Winds will pay to have a competent local technician do the repairs needed that are covered under the warranty.

I have made these same suggestions to other vendors of asian instruments and to date not one has taken my advice. Who knows, you may be the first.

 

[pete]

I'd like to know the exact details of each of the "setups," myself. For the $150 setup (included with any horn), what do y'all do? How is this different from the "Extensive Professional" setup that y'all charge $75 for?

I've also got a question on the "rent-to-own" thing. Or example, the tenor is $299.95 down and "$32.95 to 34.95 for 24 months." Does that mean the total is $1089? Why is it $32 to $34? Also, how is charging about $250 more for the rental tenor not charging interest?

 

[CE Winds]

Thanks Brian for that thorough and professional response to all of my questions. My suggestion to you is to put the essential parts of your response on your website for everyone to see. I believe it is especially important to let potential customers know IN WRITING the following information so they know EXACTLY what is being offered:

1. What "quality control" is done to each saxophone before it is shipped to the customer.
2. What parts are immediately available, how to order those parts, and what the shipping time is of parts that need to come from the factory.
3. The specific details of the 1 year and 3 year warranties that are advertised including:
- what is, and what is not covered
- where to send the saxophone for repairs covered under the warranty
- who pays the shipping costs when a saxophone is returned for repairs under the warranty
- whether or not CE Winds will pay to have a competent local technician do the repairs needed that are covered under the warranty.

I have made these same suggestions to other vendors of asian instruments and to date not one has taken my advice. Who knows, you may be the first.

Hey John,

Thanks for the feedback. I'll answer your suggestions one by one.

1) This is a great idea, but can be a catch 22. We feel that some of the things we do to the saxes are pretty common, but some are more proprietary. Listing everything would benefit our clients, true, but some things we wouldn't want others to know we are doing. I think we can find a happy medium for public information. Our saxes go through several processes before sale, inspection, bench , inspection, trial, and repeat any necessary step in between.

2) Setting up the parts online database will take some time, and lots of man hours. I like the idea, and it is on our radar as a concept moving forward. We have the schematics now, and a pretty detailed parts list that we use internally, it's just a matter of translating it to the web. We are working through some other areas first, and can hopefully tackle it by the end of the year. We often use these forums to ping with industry professionals to see what they would want, so we don't stay inside the box and do only things we want.

3) Ahhhh, the what is and is not covered question.... we go back and forth on this. Basically, the warranty reads:

"From the Original date of purchase, this instrument carries a ______ year Limited warranty against construction & manufacturer defects. This warranty does not include damage due to misuse or from regular wear and tear. You must be the original purchaser of this instrument to redeem it’s warranty, and you must have this warranty certificate. It is non-transferable and non-negotiable. We know you will enjoy your CE Winds instrument for many years to come!"

We actually gleaned that verbage from some warranty cards from vintage instruments we have received with the original warranty certificate. None were too specific, but we generally leave it up to the techs to determine the fault. I can tell you this, we've had three situations where the warranty came into play, and we covered them all, even though we know that each was from mis-use. We were able to negotiate a discount with the techs in each case, and the out of pocket cost for us wasn't too high where we wanted to strain the customer relationship. We did though, in each case, let the owners know that we would not cover that type of damage again.

I feel that if we try to list every scenario of what would, or wouldn't be covered, it would leave too many loopholes for people to try to jump through. We feel though we are a 'customer first' company, and we always try to do the right thing for people. People's general instinct is to point fingers, and we don't want to be the first to point, so we like to hear each instance individually.

When a customer calls, if we have a contact in the area, we will usually call on that person to help direct us. We have contacts all around the US so it's generally pretty easy to find a tech we can trust. If no contact, I just make some phone calls and ask some questions, then recommend the customer. If I cannot find the tech, the customer would need to ship the instrument to us, and we would make a fair determination as to what happened, but for the most part, people are honest and know when it's there fault or not, and we just try to take their word on it.

Well, I think that's it, but I am available to answer any questions you or anyone else may have. I'll try to respond faster in the future. ;-)

Peace,

Brian

 

[CE Winds]

I'd like to know the exact details of each of the "setups," myself. For the $150 setup (included with any horn), what do y'all do? How is this different from the "Extensive Professional" setup that y'all charge $75 for?

I've also got a question on the "rent-to-own" thing. Or example, the tenor is $299.95 down and "$32.95 to 34.95 for 24 months." Does that mean the total is $1089? Why is it $32 to $34? Also, how is charging about $250 more for the rental tenor not charging interest?

Hey Pete,

If you break it down, it's more about man hours in the Extensive Professional Set-up. We spend nearly two to three more hours on the Extensive set-up balancing the keys, (action and heights) and tailoring the horn specific to the needs of the player. If a player prefers a tighter set-up, then we spend the time tightening it. If they want looser, lower keys, etc, we do that. If/when someone purchases the Extensive set up, we contact them and ask them specifics about their needs as a musician. If they don't know, we talk them through it, or refund their money if they don't understand their needs. Most students don't notice key heights or action, so it's generally not an issue. Some 'pro's' have purchased our Aplha Series instruments and had specific needs, and it is basically charging them for the time it takes to set the sax up to meet their needs. From our experience as a company, we feel associating a 'cost included' fee of set up helps people be more confident that they did indeed receive a set up. If we didn't mention it, they would never know until they received the sax, whether we did or didn't set it up, and each sax gets several hours treatment before the customer gets it. Hope that is understandable, I started getting tongue (finger) twisted.

The price differential has been corrected on the site, but it was based on the finish that the customer purchased. Now we only offer one finish for the Alpha tenor rent to own, and that is gold lacquer.

We also changed the 'interest' verbage, because it is technically not interest (in our eyes at least). Processing monthly rentals takes man hours, and the cost is simply passed on to the customer. We take on all the risk for the payment plan, we do not use an outside finance company to collect the money, it is done in house. As a business, it is a high risk, high reward business, and there has to be some incentive for people to not 'rent to own'. If we made it the same price, then no one would want to buy it, they would all just do payments. But many buyers out there cannot afford the entire price of a sax, so we are just trying to help them out, and no one has ever made an issue over having to pay more. It's really a win/win situation for both the customer and for us.

Peace,

Brian

 

[pete]

RE: Rent-to-Own. The change that you've made on the website is much better than what it earlier said. It now says (for an Alpha I alto) that the horn's "$249.95 down, $24.95 a month for 24 months." Totaling that, it's $848.75. That's about $100 more than the horn without doing the rent-to-own thing ($749). It's unfortunate, though, that you have no stock to rent at the moment.

==============

RE: Set-up. While I can grasp that a "pro" setup is someone that tells you to change key heights, etc. and that that can take awhile, you don't list what you're doing for the standard set-up. Does that mean you play-test it for an hour and fix anything that leaks? Just check the horn to make sure that nothing is obviously falling off? Without knowing what the difference is, a person really can't decide why he'd want to spend more $.

===============

What "quality control" is done to each saxophone before it is shipped to the customer?

We feel that some of the things we do to the saxes are pretty common, but some are more proprietary. Listing everything would benefit our clients, true, but some things we wouldn't want others to know we are doing. I think we can find a happy medium for public information. Our saxes go through several processes before sale, inspection, bench , inspection, trial, and repeat any necessary step in between.

I'd like to think that I've got a good deal of knowledge about saxophones, in general. I'd also like to think that I know how to do quality control, because that's a good portion of my job. So, I'm relatively confused when I hear about "proprietary" quality control. Please provide, at least, an analogy.

=================

RE: Warranty. You do mention that, "When a customer calls, if we have a contact in the area, we will usually call on that person to help direct us. We have contacts all around the US so it's generally pretty easy to find a tech we can trust. If no contact, I just make some phone calls and ask some questions, then recommend the customer. If I cannot find the tech, the customer would need to ship the instrument to us, and we would make a fair determination as to what happened, but for the most part, people are honest and know when it's there fault or not, and we just try to take their word on it." Again, I've never had to use a warranty on any of the new instruments I purchased (not from CE Winds), so I'm just asking for info: how many techs and how many locations? It sounds a bit haphazard. Say my horn arrives and all the pearls have fallen off. I want to just get them reinstalled. Unfortunately, I live in Thunder Bay, Canada and there's one woodwind tech within 200 kilometers of me. Fortunately, he's a NAPBIRT member. Why can or can't I use him?

 

[CE Winds]

We allocate a certain amount of inventory to rentals, and a certain amount to sales. We are actually out of Series I Altos, but I know we have some arriving in a few weeks.

As far as the set up/quality control, we will be adding more detailed information to our site, but for the record, we do have a specific set up process each instrument goes through, which is evident when the customer gets it and plays it (but like I said, they would never know because they didn't play the instrument directly from the factory). There is a checklist that is gone through by the tech, and signed off by the tech, and the customer receives that with their warranty card. Now the current checklist only lists about 16 items, but the newest checklist (which will be printed when he current stock of printing runs out) will have closer to 30-35 items that are gone through during the set-up and quality control process. All of this will be accessable online at some point, but all of this information is sent with each instrument that goes out, even the one we sent to you. If you noticed the checklist you got with your sax, you would know that the sax was gone through, signed off, which is how/why we determined it to be a B Stock item.

As far as 'proprietary' information, we choose to not publicly disclose some of our processes, because we feel what we do gives us an edge in the marketplace. Everyone has the right to sell instruments as they want, whether with QC, or without, with a set up, or without. We know that we make an intentional effort to make sure each instrument plays as good as it can/should before it gets int he hands of the customer. I feel I could spend hours writing on this subject alone (as far as our business model, etc), but will leave it as this, we are working diligently to change the way people feel about a) buying an instrument online, b) buying an Asian (Chinese) made instrument, and also have some innovations in the pipeline that we hope will benefit musicians, music programs, and even techs. I think for a company that was officially formed in 2007, we have come a long way in a short period of time, and we are doing things that other companies should do, but don't.

As far as warranty 'claim', we have no problem with the customer using their own tech, and welcome the opportunity to speak to them on the phone about the issue. Usually a customer will tell me if they have a tech, and then it's no problem. I was recalling in the few examples where we have had a 'call to action' on the warranty, the clients did not have their own techs, and I was able to make contact with a tech for them to use in just a few hours, which was the tech of a local musician that we knew.

 

[mark wigginton]

==============

RE: Set-up. While I can grasp that a "pro" setup is someone that tells you to change key heights, etc. and that that can take awhile, you don't list what you're doing for the standard set-up. Does that mean you play-test it for an hour and fix anything that leaks? Just check the horn to make sure that nothing is obviously falling off? Without knowing what the difference is, a person really can't decide why he'd want to spend more $.

===============



I'd like to think that I've got a good deal of knowledge about saxophones, in general. I'd also like to think that I know how to do quality control, because that's a good portion of my job. So, I'm relatively confused when I hear about "proprietary" quality control. Please provide, at least, an analogy.

=================

I wanted to chime in here. I am one of the other CE Winds team members, and actually the one who oversees each and every sax that is sent out.

In regards to the forum owner saying that he does not believe that the item was a B stock item, he has the right to believe what he wants but who in their right mind would send a scratched up, blemished saxophone to an online reviewer to post a review for all the web to see. We have a very hard time keeping these saxes in stock. So we sent a B stock one to be reviewed, and this info was supposed to be passed on to the reviewer but was not, which was a communication error on our part. Secondly, the sax was tagged $749.00 which is the normal sale price, as advertised in our catalog. The saxes are all tagged the same when they arrive and are cataloged. If you buy a blemish item at Marshalls or some other outlet store, the original price is shown, which was the intended sale value... then there is a generally a red price tag that shows the new discounted price.. but the original tag is still there. So, yes the sax did not show a discounted price on it because B Stock items are generally set to the side and special deals are worked out for customers according to their needs... so an exact sale price is not always determined, we generally just tag it in the system as B stock and then Brian usually works out a deal with a customer on the phone, by email, or we liquidate the item on ebay.. where of course we do not know the final sale price until the auction ends. This exact sax was sold to a young player in Washington for $450.00 as a special deal. Her father is a pastor of a small church and contacted us about getting a sax for his daughter, so we offered it to him at that price. We are out to please customers not to fill our pockets with cash.

I wanted to chime in on the setup questions as well. I also work with Scott and our other techs very closely during the setup process, helping to hear and feel where the saxes need adjusting, etc.

We initially had a 16 point checklist which ranged from anywhere from tone hole checks, lubricating, leak checks, venting, intonation, cosmetic, neck joint, body to bow joint, etc.. Since then, we have gone up to a list of over 35 points that are gone over by our team for the saxes.

So how do the setups differ? For the most part, more time is spent with the Pro Extensive setup.. and this is easily explained by this: Imagine going home this weekend and spending the entire weekend working in the yard, pulling weeds, mowing the grass, etc.. Now imagine, instead of just using one weekend, you take the entire week off to dedicate on the yard. In both examples you may have done the very same duties, but when you spend a week doing them, they get accomplished at a higher level.

Here is a list of some things that take place, (but not all, for proprietary reasons):
-Tone holes check, and leveled where necessary.
-Mechanics oiled, greased, lubricated.
-Some factory corks, felts, bumpers replaced for specific reasons: key height adjustment, loss of motion, no bounce, etc.
- All necks custom fit and checked for air tight seal
- Entire key action balanced from top to bottom for quickness and responsiveness
- Other crucial seal checks throughout sax
- Pads reset if needed
- All pads checked for leaks
- All key heights set to our standard heights before final adjusting and metering.
- Detail cleaning of saxophone body and neck
- Hand polished and tarnish treat any extra silver plated necks, or in the case that the sax is silver or gold plated, the entire sax is treated before being reassembled (this can take forever but it is well worth)
- Detail check and cleaning of the case inside and out, leather treated for those cases that apply (from now on all Alpha series I and II come with the high grade leather cases as an added value bonus)
- Detail cleaning of all accessories.

This is the initial setup work before the sax is through the final adjusting.

In the final adjusting, the test player goes through numerous acoustic tests to get an overall idea of where the sax is and where it needs to be. The main goals here are to listen for overall tonal balance... listening first for responsiveness, then clarity and balance.

Once this is achieved, the sax is metered and the final key heights are adjusted for intonation.. using up to three different tuners at one time. This is where the expertise comes in.. if anyone has worked on enough saxes you know that sometimes you can meter it to the tee, but the sax can lose it's soul.. we strive for that perfect balance between tone and and intonation.

For classical players, we typically recommend a very rigid metering, but most jazz or contemporary players like a more open sound and are more concerned with getting that big sound; they want to know the sax can play big. Also, gigging pros have mentioned to us that they want to have enough room with the tone to be able to fit in with the ensemble or another soloists.. sometimes in the real world, you need flexibility in the live situations... and a sax that is metered to rigidly can leave you in tune with only you and the tuner, and nowhere to go with the ensemble you are in.

Generally when we know the owner is a student or beginner, we lean more towards the free blowing side of the spectrum, knowing that most students need to build that confidence in their sound; and an easy, free blowing sax with a warm tone, fits the bill.

Finding the best setup for the customer to have perfect intonation is almost an impossible task to complete, knowing that every player plays differently, has a different mouthpiece, reed, ligature, breath support, etc.. We do our best to make sure the sax is in tune with itself with an even breath support and medium embouchure up and down the stack, taking into consideration that most new players lip up and tighten their embouchure as they go up the scale, thus raising the pitch. Unless another mouthpiece is specifically requested by the customer, we test play the altos with a standard Yamaha 4C, tenors with a Meyer 6M, and sopranos and baris with the stock mouthpieces.

On a side note, I have checked intonation on Yamaha 62's, 82z's, Selmer Mark VI's, Conn 10ms, you name it, and have never found a sax with perfect pitch.. in fact the Yamaha and Selmer pro model altos seem to be the worse i have tested, yet they are the most acclaimed and most expensive. (A quick google search will bring up countless Selmer customers complaining of a sharp D2, sharp Eb2, flat D1, flat Eb1, sharp G2, flat C#2, flat C#1, sharp D3, sharp Eb3, flat F3, etc..which are pretty much the major issues altos with intonation on an alto)

Just today in the shop I picked up a Keilwerth Sx90II Soprano and right away I noticed major play in the rods in the entire G#/Bb spatula. I looked at one of our techs and said, now you know, if we ever sent a sax out like this, we'd get crucified all over the internet. This sax cost more than 3 times what our A2 soprano is and was sold like this to a customer.. along with some other major regulation errors..

Some of our techs take brand new Selmer Series III saxes and have to spend up to 7-8 hours to get them up to the standard a professional player would require. Some internationally acclaimed technicians have openly stated that they spend up to 18 hours with the new Selmers to get them to what they call "playable".. and if you have ever seen the mark up that retail stores make on a brand new Selmer, it is not much, and surely cannot cover anywhere close to a 7-8, let alone, an 18 hour setup job. I have even heard of well known techs who recommend a full repad to anyone who brings them a new Selmer because they say that the pads they are using nowadays are garbage.

Okay, Okay, I'll get off my soap box. I am sorry about that but it just really irritates me that this happens all over the world every day, and good hard working people are spending their money or even going into debt and then ending up in this exact situation. Now, I am not bashing all Selmer's or all major brands.. but to spend over $5k on a sax and have these issues is obsurd.

Okay, so back to the setup.. the final check in the adjusting is to readdress some of the key transitions that players make. During the previous key height adjusting, some keys can be moved higher or lower and thus causing loss of motion or other ergonomic issues, so we go through again and make sure these areas are covered (example being from the low Eb/C pinky table.. sometimes the gap can be too big or too high from one to another and this can easily be overlooked, especially on sopranos.

Then the sax is ready for the final prepping for packaging which is mostly cosmetic issues, proper packaging, filling out literature etc.

I would say that the average (free) professional setup includes about 1.5 -2 hours of actual bench time, another 1/2 to 1 hour test playing and final adjusting, 1 hour of detail cleaning between the sax, case and accessories, and another 1/2 to 1 hour of final packaging..

With the Extensive Pro setup the initial bench time is closer to 2-3 hours, and significantly more time is spent with the final adjusting, tonal balance, venting and metering.

Like Brian mentioned, we walk pretty close with the customer from the inception of the sale, many times helping them to choose which sax is best for the sound they are looking for, along with the budget they have.. And without a doubt, our professional level customers tend to walk a much closer journey as their sax is being prepared, and they get a much more customized setup, even to the point where past customer have even sent in their mouthpieces to really hit the nail on the head in the final adjustments.

In regards to parts, I can count on one hand how many times we have needed to actually get replacement parts. Other than one or two occasions, it was actually shipping issues with the initial shipment from the factory to the fulfillment center, that caused the need for replacement parts... and not the malfunction or break down of a part in use by the customer.

I would like to mention that the setup work we are doing now is not the same standard we have had from the beginning. We have learned so much in the past 4 years and the saxes we sell today may be the same core product but many advances have been made in the company: the setup and adjusting, overall design, packaging, customer relationship managing, order fulfillment, accessorizing, etc.. and we will continue to get advance in all these areas.

We have some very awesome and cutting edge advances coming very soon, and we are very excited to be doing what we are doing. We count it a privilege to be able to do what we do, and we love it, every aspect of the job.. its our love for people and what we do that are the major catalysts that has gotten us to where we are today.

I hope this response helps to clarify somethings for you.. and for the forum owner, Brian and I have talked and we will be sending the forum owner an A stock A1 alto in the near future for his review.

In all honesty, since his review we have gleamed from it and made some improvements.. one specific is the logo stamping process. We had noticed that some of the saxes were arriving a little thin in the main logo stamp, (this was one of the reasons the reviewed sax was demoted to a B Stock) so we addressed it with our factory and a new process was applied to improve the quality of the main logo stamp and the results are awesome, which he will see when he gets a new A1 alto.

We are also moving forward with testing out the possibility of having the A1 and A2 series completely assembled by hand in the USA.. and ultimately having them made 100% at a CE Winds factory here in the US.

I think that is all I am able to release at this time, but we will be keeping our online newsletter subscribers updated on all the new advances and updates, along with great tech tips, playing tips from our Featured Artists, and crazy deals on new items coming out this spring and summer.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. You mentioned you have a lot of knowledge in the tech side of saxes, we would love to hear from you and we would cherish any and all advice you may have.

 

[mark wigginton]

I'd like to know the exact details of each of the "setups," myself. For the $150 setup (included with any horn), what do y'all do? How is this different from the "Extensive Professional" setup that y'all charge $75 for?

I've also got a question on the "rent-to-own" thing. Or example, the tenor is $299.95 down and "$32.95 to 34.95 for 24 months." Does that mean the total is $1089? Why is it $32 to $34? Also, how is charging about $250 more for the rental tenor not charging interest?

The A1 alto has a SALE Price of $749.00, but the actual price is $1083.00. The sale price is just that, if they decide to buy online, or preorder the sax, then they get it at the SALE Price.. if they rent it, they still do not charge the full price but it comes to more than the special SALE price they would get if they pay in full while the sale price is in effect. A sale price is just that, a sale, a special on the actual price of the item to persuade them to purchase.

 

[jbtsax]

"Once this is achieved, the sax is metered and the final key heights are adjusted for intonation.. using up to three different tuners at one time."

What do you mean by "metering" a sax and how does one use three different tuners at the same time?

In your yard work analogy you left out adding the fertilizer. That thought crossed my mind as I waded through the hyperbole in your long-winded response to questions about your quality control and set ups.

Saxophone set-ups even on professional saxes are not nearly as complex and esoteric as you have made them out to be, with or without the "proprietary" secret ingredients. Methinks you are trying way too hard to impress readers on this forum, which in and of itself speaks even louder than the words you write. One's products should speak for themselves.

 

[CE Winds]

One's products should speak for themselves.

They do. I felt we are just answering questions in the forum and every other forum above and beyond what is expected of any company. Who else in the industry right now do you know that takes the time even to respond to your questions? Perhaps they are worried of the reaction, I don't know why, but we actually care about each reaction to our products, whether good or bad... I think because to us it's not about making a profit, but about making a positive effort to do something good in this industry.

You can take Mark's above response as you will, but he is passionate about what he does, and works 12-14 hour days to make sure we deliver what we promise, that's all. If his response was taken in the wrong way, I will apologize for the delivery, perhaps, but not the context of what he said.

There is no need to start a negative discourse with us, we try to keep our responses based on what we have experienced, not on industry myths.

As far as proprietary work, yes, many techs have their own 'secret' things they do to instruments, which is what separates average from the best. We contract with some of the best, and I'll stand by that statement.

 

[Gandalfe]

Thanks for taking the time to respond to Pete's review! These are very interesting instruments. I noticed the school codes too which your company also deserves kudos for.

I was taking a gander at your CE Winds Pro Series Gold alto sax. It is a beautiful looking instrument.

Is there any plan to add a positive pressure mechanism (or what ever it's called) that insures the G# will never stick? I have that done after market for my alto. None of my bigger horns seem to have the issue.

I expect that your company will be around for a while and that your Generation 3 (just guessing here) horns might have some additional features to get them to be a cut above the rest. Right now I send all my peeps to Kessler Music for their Custom series saxes. He also discounts for the teachers too when he can.

 

[pete]

Thanks for taking the time to respond to Pete's review! These are very interesting instruments. I noticed the school codes too which your company also deserves kudos for.

That is a definite plus. One of the original reasons I wanted to review this horn for was because they do have various educator and school deals. My wife works at a school and wanted to see if she could get something other than Bundy IIs or beat-up horns as rental/lease horns for her students. However, the CE Winds horns miss the mark: I'd rather find the student a used Yamaha that's been overhauled. I can believe that the next gen of Chinese student horns will be better -- at least, I want to believe.

Still, if it HAD to be a new horn, I'd probably give a call to Dave Kessler, first, and see what he could do for me/my student.

I'll possibly comment on Mark W.'s post later. I don't have the time and don't want to spend the effort, at the moment.