Untitled Document
     
Advertisement Click to advertise with us!
     

Differences between modern and old bassoons (18th century)

Hello!

I wanted to ask what differences there are in the construction of the modern bassoon compared to the bassoons from the 18th century, apart from the key system. I have noticed that the old bassoons sound a bit more gnarled. What is the reason for this?
 
I know slightly more than nothing about bassoons, but I'd definitely say intonation standard. I've seen some clarinets and other woodwinds from that period that were very close to A=440hz, but I have never done enough research to say that any one intonation standard was "more accepted" than another in the 18th or 19th century. I've also mentioned elsewhere that higher pitch standards sound sweeter to my ear, regardless of the strain on your violin strings -- which is really why higher pitches died out.

Definitely how the toneholes were created and placed. I found a Yamaha article on it, after a quick Google. I'd assume that 18th century horns had even more differences and also might not have been always placed or cut "perfectly."

I don't know if there's any difference between modern and 18th century bocals and/or reeds. I'd assume that there are some.

While material probably doesn't make a difference and, again, I'm not even close to a bassoon "guy," but that would also be something to look at. Hmmm. Pearwood bassoon might be interesting. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one modern clear plastic bassoon.

I also see it repeated on that Yamaha website, but there are both German- and French-style bassoons and the French-style is the one that's supposed to have "survived throughout its lineage to modern instruments." Yamaha also mentioned that the German-style was introduced in the 19th century, but is the most common style in use today.
 
Thank you for your answer!

In a German-language article I found the following information, which speaks of a higher tuning of old bassoons. I translated the passage into English.

"In 1858, the French government set up a commission which, the following year, already fixed a binding tuning of a' = 435 Hz for France and which was joined by large parts of Europe within a few years. Investigations of surviving tuning forks and of historical wind instruments show, however, that the introduction of the standard tuning was only tentative: numerous early bassoons by Wilhelm Heckel (after 1877) still stand at around 446 Hz or even at 451 Hz, the English "Old Philharmonic Pitch". This proves that in some places the standard tuning was not introduced at all or was abandoned after a short time."

However, this is about the 19th century, not the 18th century.

But when you listen to an 18th century bassoon and compare it to the sound of a modern bassoon, you notice how different the tone sounds. It's a little rougher, more gnarled, I think. Some time ago I read something about a rubber mute(?) which is found in modern bassoons but not in the old bassoons, and which is supposed to make modern instruments sound "softer".
 
Here's an 18th century article on pitch: https://www.jstor.org/stable/842453?seq=1. You do need an account, but the free version allows you to view a limited number of articles a month.

With any woodwind, a mute will only affect the toneholes around where the mute is and it'd affect both intonation and volume. You'd have better luck sticking something in the bocal or between the reed and bocal to limit the amount of air you're pumping into the horn. Other than that, you need to make the bore smaller -- and there will be a point where the size of the bore is so small, you can't call it a bassoon anymore.
 
I just clicked on another page in my search history. There's a modern reproduction of a Denner instrument from right around the turn of the 17th to 18th century and it's A=415hz. That's very, very low pitch! Almost a half step lower than modern.
 
Sorry, I phrased it badly.

I meant that modern bassoons probably have rubber in some part of the instrument to keep vibrations low, or something like that. That they are built with rubber in some part of the instrument as standard.

The contrabassoon also sounds different from the modern contrabassoons. In this video you can hear this rough sound in the first few seconds:


The modern bassoons and contrabassoons do not have THIS "scratchy" sound.
 
I meant that modern bassoons probably have rubber in some part of the instrument to keep vibrations low, or something like that.
I kinda doubt it. Not that I've built any bassoons recently.

Anyhow, I did take a listen to the classical contra that you posted and I wanted to get a video that had a modern contra to compare. I found this link. A contrabassoon is played alongside the Contraforte. I think the Contraforte brings back the "reediness" of the classical contrabassoon. We could then compare to the Tubax and/or other subcontrabass saxophone variants.

Anyhow, back to the comparison of like-to-like, I was correct that the reeds were different. Same with bore. So we're kinda sorta comparing red delicious apples to granny smith apples. Same fruit, but a different flavor.

I think I've hit my quota for using Os and Ss today :D.
 
Oh. Expanding a bit more on bore, because I'm remembering a thread on the Taragato, the overall smoothness of the bore could also affect sound. Again, I'm not an historian of baroque instruments, but if modern-ish Taragatos have problems with bores not being smooth enough, I'd think it'd be worse on instruments a couple hundred years older.
 
I don't know about the bocals, but baroque era bassoon reeds are most definitely notably different in design from a modern one, I know they at least are wider and have a larger internal volume. The bore on them is probably a whole lot closer to a french style bassoon than a german one like we all are familiar with, too.
Edit: ohi Pete said most of this later in the thread, this is what I get for not reading all of the thread today.
 
Thank you all for your answers :)

I think it was Nikolaus Harnoncourt who said something about the old bassoon, but I can´t find the quote :(
It should not be forgotten that in the 18th century and before, there was a great variety of instruments. All kinds of constructions and variations, all possible tunings and developments.

Probably there was not just ONE particular bassoon model at that time, but many different ones, which differed not only in their construction but also in sound. This is one of the reasons why I am interested in HIP: I would like to get to know these many different sounds of that time, which have been lost today, or are only gradually being rediscovered.

Harnoncourt once said:

“Then there was the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna with actually the most significant collection of very early instruments. The people were so helpful back then, they opened every showcase for us, and we sat for hours and hours in the museum and played on the instruments. And there we noticed the richness of the sounds in relation to what we have today. The range of sounds between 1500 and 1800 is simply insanely rich. And absolutely impossible to produce with modern instruments.”
 
I found a quote by Nikolaus Harnoncourt about bassoons, although there is another one I didn´t found yet, in which he gets more precise about this topic. Here is the quote (translated by me):

"Where has the wonderful Bzz of bassoons gone - the Rubber lining smothered it."
 
I found a quote by Nikolaus Harnoncourt about bassoons, although there is another one I didn´t found yet, in which he gets more precise about this topic. Here is the quote (translated by me):

"Where has the wonderful Bzz of bassoons gone - the Rubber lining smothered it."

Well, that is interesting. Unfortunately, I think I've reached the end of all I know about bassoons. Oh. I do remember they sometimes play in tenor and/or movable clefs. OK. Now I'm done :D.
 
Thanks for the link! In the description of the bassoon it is said that there is a rubber lining in both the bell and the wing.

On Google Books, I found the book "The Art of Bassoon Playing". There it says:

"The wing joint and the small side oft he boot joint have been lined with hard rubber or ebonite. This practice has become almost universal with the German bassoon today, and only very old bassoons will be found lacking this rubber lining."


In the same book there is a list of innovations for the bassoon in the 20th century. Among other things it says:

"1920: Rubber boot cap covering to prevent shock or damage to instrument"


I don't know exactly when the use of rubber or hard rubber in bassoon construction began, but it seems that modern bassoons do in fact have one or more rubber linings which did not exist in earlier times (such as the time of Bach or Mozart).
 
Back
Top Bottom