Kohlert

pete

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
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I love getting interesting mail.

A Danish reader of saxpics.com sent me a Kohlert catalog that was printed between 1930 and 1938. It's in German and the prices are in Czech Crowns.

The horns listed first are the ones I called "Pre-WWII" ("1930's Models") on saxpics.com: they're split-bell key horns. Pitches:

* Straight Bb Soprano ([HASHTAG]#317[/HASHTAG])
* Straight C Soprano ([HASHTAG]#317[/HASHTAG] -- yes, the same number)
* Straight Eb Soprano ([HASHTAG]#317[/HASHTAG]) -- i.e., sopranino
* Curved Bb Soprano ([HASHTAG]#318[/HASHTAG])
* Curved C Soprano ([HASHTAG]#318[/HASHTAG])
* Eb Alto ([HASHTAG]#319[/HASHTAG])
* Alto Saxophone in F (Mezzo Soprano - [HASHTAG]#319[/HASHTAG]) -- and a drawing of one is in the catalog. It looks like the Conn F Mezzo.
* Tenor in C ([HASHTAG]#320a[/HASHTAG])
* Tenor in Bb ([HASHTAG]#320b[/HASHTAG])
* Baritone in Eb ([HASHTAG]#321[/HASHTAG])
* Bass in Bb ([HASHTAG]#322[/HASHTAG])
* Contrabass in Eb ([HASHTAG]#323[/HASHTAG])

... and then there are listings for the "The Popular" versions -- the horns engraved this are the cheaper versions and don't have trill keys, which I had posited on saxpics.com.

Finally, there are the "Saxophone gew?hnlidhen Systems" horns. These are horns that have a range from low B to altissimo Eb and look like they were made by A. Sax, himself -- and they again include an F alto (only straight sopranos and no contra).

Anyone wanna translate 14 pages of German? :D
 
Now THAT is a real find! Now to look up exchange rates circa 1930. Sounds like a half dozen saxes in there that I never knew existed. I wonder if Scott Robinson's contrabass sax is one from that catalog.
 
Let's see.

Math fun. $1 is valued at approximately 22 Czech Crowns (in 2006). And 8 cents in 1930 = $1 in 2006.

(Of course, we're talking the American economy, not German/Czech -- which had a very high inflation rate, IIRC from my Social Studies classes. However, we're talking post stock-market crash, so it might be close.)

The F alto is 3730 Crowns. That'd be $2040 for the horn in today's money. I think (3730/22 and then use the exchange calculator on http://www.forextv.com/Forex/Resource/C ... ulator.jsp). The math teacher wife says it sounds right.

The Eb contra is 18630 crowns. That's $10,222 in today's money.

Both of these horns are silver plated with gold wash bells. Let me try to translate the EXPENSIVE version which is "Vierfach sandmalt vergoldet, Ringe, Klappen, Gravur and Becher innen hell-gl?nzend poliert". I THINK that's, "Sandblasted quadruple gold [plate], keywork, bell and body engraved and the bell is satin finished." (I'm pretty good translating from the German if I use Google and have some sort of clue what it SHOULD say in English.) That version of the contra is 23200 crowns, or $12,730, today.

Hmm. Any regrets about the price you paid for that Eppelshiem, Groove? :D

The fun thing about the contra is that it looks like it has the double-low-c tonehole that was on a bunch of different horns -- and BOTH keyguards are Mercedes-Benz logo shaped. No, Conn had NO influence on Kohlert designs :).

I have a REALLY poor picture of a Kohlert contra HERE.

OH. Dating the catalog: there are a variety of awards listed for 1930 and the catalog is listed as "Graslitz, Bohemia, Czech Republic". The gentleman that sent it said that this means it's pre-1938. I also know that before 1939, Kohlert switched to the beautiful "VKS" horns, so it's a very small time window.

Unless someone volunteers to help, I'll try translating some small sections and try to scan the catalog a bit later. I'm currently waiting for a college project and I have three or four other things I have to do first!
 
BTB, I think Scott Robinson has an Evette-Schaeffer. I just seem to remember that someone mentioned that in passing. If I can see a good picture of his horn, I can tell. Hey, I've actually held one ....
 
pete said:
BTB, I think Scott Robinson has an Evette-Schaeffer. I just seem to remember that someone mentioned that in passing. If I can see a good picture of his horn, I can tell. Hey, I've actually held one ....
Click to expand...

I have a feeling Scott's is a Stowasser & Sohne.
 
Good ol' W.A.

One of these days, I'm going to have to research that company in depth.
 
Quote - Saxpics:

"Hmm. Any regrets about the price you paid for that Eppelshiem, Groove?"

I bought the Eppelsheim Eb Tubax when the dollar was in better shape, and It's holding its value well. I might not live long enough to make money on the Eppelsheim Bb bass sax but I don't care. It's the one I want.

I've corresponded with Scott Robinson about his contrabass and there was a short film about his acquisition of the horn on Public TV. Somewhere the maker of the instrument was mentioned, but I don't remember what it was. Merlin may be right. Whatever it is, Scott sounds great on it.

That was some fast research on the saxophone prices.
 
I aim to please. I so frequently miss, though :).

That 14-page catalog is really jam-packed with stuff. Unfortunately, it'll take a while for me to translate and transliterate. One of the reasons is that my "main" computer is a PC and it's HARD to type umlauts and all those fun characters on a PC.
 
Y'know? That was difficult.

I searched for a picture of Scott and his contra and found exactly three. One had way too much bell, one was light and out of focus. The third was a bit of a closeup of the bell to body brace. It's different from the Evette-Schaeffer and the Kohlert. It curves down.

However, I found that "WA Stowasser" is "Wenzel Stowasser". They're still around and make tubas. I can't find a website for 'em, tho.

EDIT: check that. I found some notes that Stowasser was nationalized in 1945. Made me think of Amati. Sure enough, they're an Amati brand. It's just not mentioned on Amati's English page, just their German one. Pity Stowasser is the "value brand".

BTB, there's also a "Janos Stowasser". Different guy. Budapest. Taragato.
 
I'll check my CD of Scott Robinson's "Thinking Big" with the contrabass sax. Some older Italian saxes had a bell-to-body brace that curved down.

I have a gig in a few weeks with Ken Peplowski, who uses Scott a lot. Maybe he knows something about Scott's contrabass.
 
Groovekiller said:
I'll check my CD of Scott Robinson's "Thinking Big" with the contrabass sax. Some older Italian saxes had a bell-to-body brace that curved down.
Click to expand...
More than one French brand, too.

As far as I'm aware, Rampone & Cazzani has never been proven to have made any horn lower than a baritone and Orsi, which makes contras today, might not be old enough.

I doubt that any of the other smaller Italian manufacturers would have made a contra.
 
The aforementioned Kohlert catalog has been scanned and put on my website: http://thesax.info/Kohlert-pre-1938-catalog

* It got a little out of order: 1-8 then 61-66.
* Large JPEGS. 1-2mb each file. They're all 1700x2340.
* Thanks to the gentleman that sent me the hard copy (really: it's a copy), Peterogping from SOTW.

That's all I have time for, tonight. I'll try to use Google to translate and then transliterate when I have the chance. Sorry: I do not have any more pages.
 
pete said:
The aforementioned Kohlert catalog has been scanned and put on my website: http://thesax.info/Kohlert-pre-1938-catalog

* It got a little out of order: 1-8 then 61-66.
* Large JPEGS. 1-2mb each file. They're all 1700x2340.
* Thanks to the gentleman that sent me the hard copy (really: it's a copy), Peterogping from SOTW.

That's all I have time for, tonight. I'll try to use Google to translate and then transliterate when I have the chance. Sorry: I do not have any more pages.
Click to expand...

If you'd like some help with the translation Pete, I'b be happy to help you out. (German was my first language, and I'm still fluent in it.)

Drop me a note sometime about it if you like...
 
I just took a good look at this.

Interesting document.

1 - It was orginally printed prior to 1938 - most of it refers to the time when Graslitz (German spelling) was part of Czechoslovakia between the two world wars (look at the title line on each page, which says Graslitz, Bohmen, CSR, i.e. Graslitz, Bohemia, Czech Republic). But on page 2 what appears to be the Czech address, has been overprinted and next to it is Graslitz, Sudetengau, Deutschland, indicating that the catalog was current and not yet reset/reprinted after Germany annexed the Sudetenland in 1938. But the prices remain in Czech crowns. As such it provides a lot of information that will be useful for dating old Kohlerts.

2 - It says they were suppliers to the US army (amonst others)..... Interesting, especially given their relationship with King before WWI.

3 - No mention of the VKS models with the elaborate sheet metal keyguards. Wonder if these were new and hadn't made it into the catalog, or were possibly on a separate sheet which has been lost. Perhpas in view of this being a special catalogue, not all sax models were listed.
 
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kevgermany said:
I just took a good look at this.

Interesting document.

1 - It was orginally printed prior to 1938 - most of it refers to the time when Graslitz (German spelling) was part of Czechoslovakia between the two world wars (look at the title line on each page, which says Graslitz, Bohmen, CSR, i.e. Graslitz, Bohemia, Czech Republic). But on page 2 what appears to be the Czech address, has been overprinted and next to it is Graslitz, Sudetengau, Deutschland, indicating that the catalog was current and not yet reset/reprinted after Germany annexed the Sudetenland in 1938. But the prices remain in Czech crowns. As such it provides a lot of information that will be useful for dating old Kohlerts.

2 - It says they were suppliers to the US army (amonst others)..... Interesting, especially given their relationship with King before WWI.

3 - No mention of the VKS models with the elaborate sheet metal keyguards. Wonder if these were new and hadn't made it into the catalog, or were possibly on a separate sheet which has been lost. Perhpas in view of this being a special catalogue, not all sax models were listed.
Click to expand...
I mention about the VKS horns and location stuff in Post 3. FWIW, I don't think the VKS horns were around for very long. (Also, take a look at a VKS bari, sometime: interesting way the keys are hinged. Reminds me of the Buffet-Powell horns.) I can also say, based on seeing a lot of Kohlerts, the location information engraved on the bell was extremely fluid, probably more based on where Kohlert was selling TO, rather than reflecting where they were actually based out of: "Oh. We're going to be sending that shipment to Germany. Better stamp the horns that we're based out of Deutchland rather than CSR." Just an opinion, tho.

Expanding my horizons a bit more, I've got a beautiful clear plastic clarinet on my website. It's a pre-WWII Kohlert. I only know the dating because the name of the company lettered on the horn is VKS, not just "Kohlert."

I've mentioned elsewhere that some really, really early HN White ("King," at the time, was just a model name) horns are Kohlerts. Unfortunately, it's been difficult to find something early enough. Especially as I'm not actively looking for it :). An opinion I can give is that Kohlert was just tossing in a comment that they once provided horns to the US army as a bit of extra advertising. Kinda like how Selmer stamped "Gold Medal 1904" on their stencil saxophones (the gold medal was for their clarinets) they bought up to 1922.
 
Sorry, by King, I meant H N White.

afik the Kohlert relationship finished around 1914, not sure why, but I guess it could have had something to do with WWI...
 
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