New Resource on VEB Blechblas- und Signal-Instrumenten-Fabrik (B&S) Horns

Helen

Helen

Content Expert Saxophones
Staff member
Administrator
I've finally gotten around to publishing a few pages on my website that I've been literally working on for a few years now. I originally started gathering info on the original B&S horns back in 2009 sometime, but it's taken me until now to collate all the data and put everything together into the following sections:

Akustik,
Weltklang, &
Weltklang baritones.

The last section left to do is the one on the B&S (blue label) horns themselves. I hope to have that published in the coming weeks. In the meantime, all the above pages can be accessed through the main B&S page itself, which contains background info. on the company.

I get a fair amount of requests for info. about vintage B&S horns. With these new pages, it is my hope that some questions about some of the more common vintage saxophones of East German origin, will now be answered for English language audiences.
 
I've collected a bunch of B&S pics, particularly of the newer horns, in my picture gallery. I've mentioned that I was thinking about writing a B&S info page, but I've just not had the time. Enjoy the pics!
 
Oh. As a side note, you might remember this horn, Helen. It's a custom "Gold Label" B&S from Silver-Sax. It was on eBay last month.

There was a bit of discussion on this horn a few years back because:

* The neck is engraved "Nenibredni." That's "Inderbinen" spelled backwards. They're the folks that make the most expensive base soprano, alto and tenor in the world. In a post on the Museum-Markneukirchen forum, though, the Inderbinen folks denied even making the neck.
* The bell is engraved "Ahnenerbe." Which, "...[W]as a Nazi pseudoscientific institute that was to research the supposed archaeological and cultural history of the hypothesized 'Aryan race,'" per Wikipedia. It's original meaning was, "Something inherited from the forefathers," also per the same Wikipedia article.

Interesting history.
I think I forgot to post here that this horn is pretty, but it's a fake.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't know how I missed your reply Pete. My bad... :oops:

That tenor by B&S with the strange engraving has been kicking around for a while. I wonder if Silver Sax finally managed to sell it? Interesting thread on the Markneukirchen Forum. Thanks for the link! I find the forum frustrating, since it's not allowing me to search for "B&S", and now I see that this thread didn't turn up because I searched for saxophon, and not tenorsaxophon (not the way tenor saxophone is normally spelled in German). I realize I will have to re-enter my search words, and look for words that have been strung together. Pain in the butt...

I am currently writing my B&S page, and am looking for a few more "gold label" horns for research purposes, since I've had this theory for some time about what they were. The earliest one I've found was tenor # 1654, and it had quite a few more features than the regular "blue label" horns--features that ostensibly didn't make it into the B&S horns until late into the production of these horns. Jury is out, since I have yet to find a late-model blue label horn with all the extra features that the early model gold label tenor had.

Oh, and FWIW, none of the original B&S materials that I have at my disposal, mention anything about 2 models of B&S saxophones. I have to keep digging on some of the German sites since I might still find something there, but at this point, I've not seen anything yet.
 
I finished writing the B&S "blue label" page yesterday. It is now up on my website.

There is precious little information out there that can be substantiated through sources. I have only seen a copy of the 1 vintage brochure from the '80s that I mention, and sadly, I can't make out the printing on the medallion that these saxophones are supposed to have won. I have also searched high and low online and can't find any references for such a medallion win either.

As I mention on my site, I'm going to start compiling data on these horns, and see if there aren't some differences that are detectable over time. When I started doing this with Dörfler & Jörka horns, all kinds of weird things started popping up, including JK-like angel wings.

Finally, I haven't spent as much time on German sites as I could have. Now that I have all the known facts on B&S published, I'm going to see if I can find some more obscure references. The standard German sites where much information can normally be gleaned about obscure, vintage German horns, offered nothing new on the blue label saxes. I haven't given up hope that maybe some less popular--read much lower ranked sites--might have something accurate and verifiable.

Happy reading folks.
 
Nice.

I've collected quite a few pics of Weltklang and B&S group pics. Feel free to take what you need from my websites. One interesting thing I came across was a Weltklang that has a flyer that looks like it lists "The 12 Great Features" (FWIW, SML, Buescher, and Selmer also put out lists of features, so it's not exactly an original marketing concept). Pics are here.

I'm currently working on a heavy update to my Claude Laurent page, so I haven't been doing much with sax for the past couple weeks. However, I had been collecting some links and pics (I've posted a few, already) to write up a B&S page at some time. I'll zip them up and send 'em to you.

I also recommend that you check out this guy on eBay. His descriptions are not always accurate, but he's got some interesting horns.
 
Thank you Pete. I have to check all of these links out. Thanks for the offer on the pics. I'll be taking you up on that. As I type this, I'm putting together my Excel spread sheet. I find layout of these things is always the worst. I inevitably screw up, so I have to redo the chart umpteen times. I always seem to get my X & Y axis in the wrong direction when making up charts too. Oh, what I wouldn't give to not be spatially challenged some days. Thanks Topamax ....

Since VMI (what the VEB that made B&S morphed in to after Germany's reunification), stopped making saxophones, I'm planning on doing up a final section on the final years of the company's saxophone manufacturing. There is likely a lot more info available on that however.
 
You might want to look up Dave Kessler regarding the last days of B&S's sax line. He used to sell those horns and has a lot of pics archived on his website. 'Course, we also know that the B&S sax tooling was sold to the folks at Powell making the Silver Eagle sax.
 
for the record, today I saved a Weltklang Solist Tenor from the dumpster. It's in original (although not quite pristine) condition, if anyone wants pictures, I can do before I get rough on it.
(If you've ever found yourself booing and hissing about cheap chinese pads - the Ulbricht-era pads on this specimen must have so escaped any kind of quality control that some of their resos are so off-center that they actually touch the toneholes from the inside...)
 
I would love pictures Ben. Thanks for the offer! Do you have my email address? You do now. ;-)

Could I also ask a favour? Would you be able to take a photo of the body tube--minus the keys--when you're working on the horn? I would really like to get a photo of the inline tone holes for my website.

BTW, the Soloist was the top of the line Weltklang. Why? I don't know, and none of the literature that I have come across explains the differences between the regular Weltklangs, and the Soloists either. Given that, what happened with the reso placement I wonder? What does that say about the reso placement on their regular horns? :eek:
 
Helen said:
I would love pictures Ben. Thanks for the offer!
Click to expand...
On their way...
Helen said:
BTW, the Soloist was the top of the line Weltklang. Why? I don't know, and none of the literature that I have come across explains the differences between the regular Weltklangs, and the Soloists either. Given that, what happened with the reso placement I wonder? What does that say about the reso placement on their regular horns? :eek:
Click to expand...
Most of the pads/resos look like these:
WeltklangPad1.jpgWeltklangPad2.jpg
 
Maybe this was the horn that was built after a staff party at work--that involved lots of liquid refreshments of the alcoholic kind. ;-) :emoji_smile:
 
I checked the serial of this specimen - it's from 1989. Must be one of the last horns that left that brassmonger Kombinat.
 
gotta love these pads, Helen. No cardboard backing, just leather and wool (refuse to call this "felt")... :emoji_astonished:
 
Tidbit I found:

Musical instrument makers around Markneukirchen were organised in cooperatives, for the purchase of materials and selling of products. Wunderlich was member of Migma, an acronym for "Musikinstrumenten Genossenschaft Markneukirchen", a cooperative with at a time several hundred musical instrument makers, established in 1943 and still existing. Other workshops were organised in Sinfonia, a production cooperative (PGH, Produktions Geselschaft) that existed as of 1960. In the seventies, wenn it became clear that with export of hand made instruments foreign currency could be acquired, the PGH Sinfonia was transferred into a 'Volkseigene Betrieb' (VEB Sinfonia), a state organisation. In 1984 the VEB SINFONIA became VEB Blechblas- und Signalinstrumentenfabrik Markneukirchen. In 1990 VEB B & S became the Vogtländische Musikinstrumentenfabrik GmbH (VMI).

Members of PGH Sinfonia were amongst others Johannes Scherzer, who in 1961 took over the workshop of his uncle Kurt Knoth (both using the tradename 'Rino'), Karl Mönnich, Albert Wolfram, Otto Meinel, Walter Mönnig, Erhard Sawatzki as well as the Philipp Reichel workshop with his 'subdivisions' Armin Glier and Klaus Wolfram.

The workshop of Kurth Knoth and his successor (and nephew) Johannes Scherzer made several hundreds of octagonal trumpets, according to Mario Weller. Kurth Knoth took over the Rino workshop from his father Emil in 1935, and moved it to the Mosenstraße 13 in Markneukirchen. As of 1961 Johannes Scherzer was in charge. The Scherzer workshop then in 1984 became part of the VEB Blechblas- und Signalinstrumentenfabrik.

Here's an octagonal trumpet engraved Kurt Knoth Instr.Baumeister with trademark Rino and sold through Migma, with hammered tubing and gold wash bell. Dated 1940 -1950 by the 2014 Ebay seller, but as it's engraved Migma it can't be before 1943.
Click to expand...
Source.

I'd encourage folks to visit this 'site, regardless of whether you're interested in Migma, etc. I had never heard of octagonal trumpets before landing on this page.
 
Update:

I'm currently working on the some more of my website's B&S pages that I've neglected for far too long. In the coming weeks I'll post an update when all the new pages in the Vogtländische Musikinstrumentenfabrik GmbH Markneukirchen (VMI) section are done.

In the meantime, I did publish a new page today on Weltklang vs Blue Label Baritones. There are some significant differences, but none as big as the bell construction of the 2 brands.

Weltklang used a construction technique similar to Conn when they built their 11M, while the B&S blue label had a one piece bell.

My new page noted above contains large pics so you can compare/contrast between the 2 German brands. I even found a large Conn 11M print ad for comparison.

I'm not sure how much difference a true conical bore vs a cylindrical insert makes, but I'm sure that those who discuss the merits of the 11M vs say a Magna would have an opinion. Myself, I have not played an 11M, so I can't speak from experience. Nor have I played a Weltklang or a B&S bari. I'm not sure it would be fair to compare my Medusa to either of them--although I would argue that B&S didn't put a whole lot of development into their baris post 1989. :p
 
Hey, Helen,

I'm uploading some pics tonight and I came across the B&S SC-620 curved soprano, which you have on your website. I think this is the only B&S/VMI/Welklang/etc. curved soprano, which leads me to think that B&S didn't make it. In other words, it's a stencil. I did some brief Googling and I can't find pics of another SC-620. I read a couple threads on SOTW where some folks say it's made by B&S and some folks say "stencil." What's your opinion and have you seen any other B&S/VMI/Welklang/etc. curved sopranos?

Second question. I'm fairly sure I remember that LA Sax, back in the 80s and 90s (I think), were B&S stencils. Not just the Chicago Jazz, but the Endangered Species horns and the straight altos and tenors, too. I do remember that their contras were provided by Orsi. Am I right or are my drugs working especially well tonight?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
pete said:
Hey, Helen,

I'm uploading some pics tonight and I came across the B&S SC-620 curved soprano, which you have on your website. I think this is the only B&S/VMI/Welklang/etc. curved soprano, which leads me to think that B&S didn't make it. In other words, it's a stencil. I did some brief Googling and I can't find pics of another SC-620. I read a couple threads on SOTW where some folks say it's made by B&S and some folks say "stencil." What's your opinion and have you seen any other B&S/VMI/Welklang/etc. curved sopranos?

Second question. I'm fairly sure I remember that LA Sax, back in the 80s and 90s (I think), were B&S stencils. Not just the Chicago Jazz, but the Endangered Species horns and the straight altos and tenors, too. I do remember that their contras were provided by Orsi. Am I right or are my drugs working especially well tonight?
Click to expand...

Oh, you want spoilers... ;) OK, I'll play.

1. The 500 Series was introduced in 1998. They were meant to be a replacement for the Weltklang that had been discontinued in 1994. However it didn't last long. It was replaced in 2002 by the 600 Series. Both the 500 and 600 Series were made in Taiwan.

2. You are quite correct about LA Sax selling the Orsi contra in the 90s, and I remember the Endangered Species and straight altos and tenors as well.

That said, in none of the historic literature I have come across from the company do they state that they made stencils for LA sax, nor straight saxes of any type. No historians have written about the company's foray into that exotic a built type (straight) either. If they had, I would think they would have also sold them under they own name, but they didn't.

BTW, my Series 2001 page is up, and I'm working on my Codera page. Here's a link to the main VMI/B&S page where the links will become active as soon as the pages are up. (The navigation just under the header will show the pages as soon as they are published as well. Just hover over Modern Saxes.)
 
I added pics from a couple Coderas on my website last night. Please use them if they help. If you want to get even more into it, Wolf Codera has a website (also check out archive.org) and used to be a fairly big contributor to the SOTW forums, so you might want to check in their archive that's online or in the stuff I sent you several months ago.

Thanks, re: SC-620. Good info.

I did some more research on LA Sax last night. They seem to have switched around quite a bit: some horns, like the straight alto and tenor, were designed by them, but built in Taiwan. LA Sax did have the Chicago Jazz horns made for them by B&S. Orsi then made a few different models/pitches. As far as I can tell, LA Sax offered the color combos to anyone who could pay:

2017-01-07_1004.png


LA Sax, oddly enough, was one of the first 'sites on the Web. It looks like they first got online in late 1996/early 1997. Archive.org has several FULL copies of the website, taken from several different years. The 1997 archive is almost completely working and a late 1997 archive has the "Endangered Species" finished horns. Looks like the last full copy was 2001.
 
Last edited:
The stuff I read today about Wolf Codera today was really depressing. I did a lot of research into his resoblade patent. I don't understand how Toptone could have fiddle f'd with the B&S horns that carried his name--other than scaring the Co. with lawsuits.

Codera (spelled Kodera in the German patent) applied for and received the patent, not Toptone. I have to do some research into the Dutch company and see if I can try and figure out how they came to use the resoblades on their horns in the first place. Very strange...


Simple storyboard: Codera horns use resoblades > Toptone uses similar (same?) technology > both companies work co-operatively > Cooperation breaks down > Toptone obtains stop work order and threatens lawsuit against B&S > B&S ceases production > Wolf Codera never recoups more than 1/2 of the $ he put into the patent and associated legal costs > Toptone goes tits up > B&S ceases sax production.

Who won? No ONE!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom