Does anyone have any information about this V.KohlertFils Sternberg Paris Saxophone? It has pearl touchpieces on the plateau and palm keys.
V.KohlertFils Sternberg Paris Saxophone
- Thread starter jbtsax
- Start date
Standard Kohlert. Interesting engraving.
* Serial number is incorrect or misstamped. I think it's 255xxx, which is about 1934. It's really hard to read, in any event. (I've not seen a VKS with a higher serial # than 286320 and VKS became "Kohlert" right after WWII.)
* I've not seen one of these with single-side bell keys, but the "VKS" model came out in 1935ish, so this is obviously slightly earlier.
* Example alto w/split bell keys.
It's a good price. Should play like a Conn.
* Serial number is incorrect or misstamped. I think it's 255xxx, which is about 1934. It's really hard to read, in any event. (I've not seen a VKS with a higher serial # than 286320 and VKS became "Kohlert" right after WWII.)
* I've not seen one of these with single-side bell keys, but the "VKS" model came out in 1935ish, so this is obviously slightly earlier.
* Example alto w/split bell keys.
It's a good price. Should play like a Conn.
Thanks Pete. "You da man" when it comes to saxophone trivia. I may pick it up to restore if it doesn't go too high. I was going to argue that the first digit of the serial number looked more like a "3", but when magnified and enhanced it could very well be a "2" like you said.
No problem. I'm here to share.
For German horns, the only manufacturer that I can truly say you're probably not going to find any more info than what I've got is Kohlert. Helen's made some big strides on some other German/Czech manufacturers that I've never heard of. Of course, she can also read German, I can't
.
I've heard from a number of folks that own other Kohlert instruments and I can say that it certainly seems like they only had the one set of serial numbers.
Hey, the horn's only $45. I wish I knew more about the "bent" keys. Looks like that one of the low C# key posts has been re-soldered and there's a ding in the bow, but I can think of it freshly nickel plated. It'll be quite pretty.
For German horns, the only manufacturer that I can truly say you're probably not going to find any more info than what I've got is Kohlert. Helen's made some big strides on some other German/Czech manufacturers that I've never heard of. Of course, she can also read German, I can't
.I've heard from a number of folks that own other Kohlert instruments and I can say that it certainly seems like they only had the one set of serial numbers.
Hey, the horn's only $45. I wish I knew more about the "bent" keys. Looks like that one of the low C# key posts has been re-soldered and there's a ding in the bow, but I can think of it freshly nickel plated. It'll be quite pretty.
Very nice looking sax. I've a similarly engraved one, but with split bell keys and fewer pearls, s/n 265xxx.
Kohlert's Czech, btw - it's the post WWII ones that were made in Germany, this was made in Graslitz or Kraslice (Czech spelling).
Haven't seen one with so many pearls before.
Serial number definitely starts with a 2 as Pete said, there's a big kick up in the 'tail' of the two in the font they used.
Kohlert engraved their horns in different languages, I think for the intended sale country, so I'd guess yours was made for France, and Sternberg could be the dealer. Mine's a 'Star', engraved in German and says Graslitz, Sudetengau, which would date the engraving at least, to 1938 or later.
I've also got a VKS model 277xxx with RHS bell keys (awaiting restoration) with different engraving.
These are nice horns, play well, intonation's not bad. If that was being offered here, it'd probably go for about 300 Euros, despite the non-player tag. Doesn't look as if it needs a lot to get it playing. Would be interesting to find out more about the mouthpiece, could be a gem hiding there.
Kohlert's Czech, btw - it's the post WWII ones that were made in Germany, this was made in Graslitz or Kraslice (Czech spelling).
Haven't seen one with so many pearls before.
Serial number definitely starts with a 2 as Pete said, there's a big kick up in the 'tail' of the two in the font they used.
Kohlert engraved their horns in different languages, I think for the intended sale country, so I'd guess yours was made for France, and Sternberg could be the dealer. Mine's a 'Star', engraved in German and says Graslitz, Sudetengau, which would date the engraving at least, to 1938 or later.
I've also got a VKS model 277xxx with RHS bell keys (awaiting restoration) with different engraving.
These are nice horns, play well, intonation's not bad. If that was being offered here, it'd probably go for about 300 Euros, despite the non-player tag. Doesn't look as if it needs a lot to get it playing. Would be interesting to find out more about the mouthpiece, could be a gem hiding there.
I get comments on that from time to time.
You'll find an odd older VKS here and there that is labeled, "Germany." Grazlitz is just a couple miles away from the German border. Winnenden, where Kohlert moved to after WWII, is about 4 hours away and is definitely in Germany. I theorize that the horns were engraved with different versions of "V. Kohlert's Sons" and "Germany" or "Czechoslovakia" depending on who they were selling their instruments to -- in other words, "Political reasons."
What's now the Czech Republic was partitioned in 1938-ish and added to Germany. Germany invaded the area in 1939.
While I do watch the Military Channel from time to time, I'm not exactly a WWI/II historian. Personally, I don't mind if someone says that I'm Polish, even though my ancestors came here before Poland came back into existence in 1918 -- and came from an area that's only a few miles and about equally distant from (modern) Germany and the Czech Republic.
Anyhow, enough fun with maps.google.com. My original Kohlert article is still online at http://saxpics.com/kohlert. Some of the linkies can still be accessed through archive.org.
It just sold for $338 which is a good price. I tried to snipe it for around $200 since it stayed at $127 till the last few seconds, but there were others willing to pay more. I need to finish some of my rebuilds first before adding more to the queue anyway. That looked like an interesting project nonetheless. Sigh, you win some and you lose some. C'est la vie.
Pete, haven't seen any Kohlert saxes marked Germany from pre WWII. My VKS is a popular, engraved in German V Kohlert's Sons Graslitz, no country given.
The whole area was either part of Germany, or the Austrian Empire pre-WWI, and the Czech Republic created post WWI when Austria lost her empire for fighting on the German side. Hitler annexed the Sudetenland in 1938, dubious legality. They wouldn't have been able to mark the saxes Germany, unless they were made by someone else for them on the German side of the border, possibly in Markneukirchen.
Large numbers of ethnic Germans in the area both sides of the border, although most got expelled from Cz post WWII.
So you have to say that as the sax was made on the Cz side of the border, before Hitler's annexation, it's strictly speaking, Czech, not German, despite the closeness and many links between the makers.
Interestingly the instrument maker I took mine to in Munich for repairs when I first got it, said that in his opinion, the Kohlerts were the best of the old German saxes... And when I said it's Czech, he agreed, but said they were really the same thing.
Agree on the closeness to the border, went through Kraslice on the way to Prague last summer. Also visited Markneukirchen, there's a superb musical instrument museum there, even if little is left of the instrument manufacturing.
The whole area was either part of Germany, or the Austrian Empire pre-WWI, and the Czech Republic created post WWI when Austria lost her empire for fighting on the German side. Hitler annexed the Sudetenland in 1938, dubious legality. They wouldn't have been able to mark the saxes Germany, unless they were made by someone else for them on the German side of the border, possibly in Markneukirchen.
Large numbers of ethnic Germans in the area both sides of the border, although most got expelled from Cz post WWII.
So you have to say that as the sax was made on the Cz side of the border, before Hitler's annexation, it's strictly speaking, Czech, not German, despite the closeness and many links between the makers.
Interestingly the instrument maker I took mine to in Munich for repairs when I first got it, said that in his opinion, the Kohlerts were the best of the old German saxes... And when I said it's Czech, he agreed, but said they were really the same thing.
Agree on the closeness to the border, went through Kraslice on the way to Prague last summer. Also visited Markneukirchen, there's a superb musical instrument museum there, even if little is left of the instrument manufacturing.
VKS and Kohlert are really different entities in several ways: different serial number charts, very different models, different levels of quality (especially after 1957 or so).
Comparing Germanic saxophones is also a bit of a murky topic: some Julius Keilwerth horns look a lot like VKS horns because JK apprenticed at VKS. Some Kohlert horns look a lot like JK horns because JK made some of them. You then have to talk about Adler, GH Huller (eventually B&S), Max Keilwerth (Hohner), Hammerschmidt and several others. I don't know if I could even grade "best" in that bunch: VKS was the biggest, until about mid-WWII. JK has survived the longest and is still in business. Hammerschmidt made arguably the prettiest. Huller lasted for a long while and, while the B&S saxophones are now a distant memory, they were pretty darn good, from what I hear. Adler was also quite the large company.
I can say that Germanic saxophones, pre-WWII, had one common characteristic: they looked like Conns and played a lot like them. Right at the beginning of WWII, VKS started producing horns that started to go a bit more further from that design and I've commented that the "single sided" keywork of the "VKS Model" bari was something distinctly different.
Comparing Germanic saxophones is also a bit of a murky topic: some Julius Keilwerth horns look a lot like VKS horns because JK apprenticed at VKS. Some Kohlert horns look a lot like JK horns because JK made some of them. You then have to talk about Adler, GH Huller (eventually B&S), Max Keilwerth (Hohner), Hammerschmidt and several others. I don't know if I could even grade "best" in that bunch: VKS was the biggest, until about mid-WWII. JK has survived the longest and is still in business. Hammerschmidt made arguably the prettiest. Huller lasted for a long while and, while the B&S saxophones are now a distant memory, they were pretty darn good, from what I hear. Adler was also quite the large company.
I can say that Germanic saxophones, pre-WWII, had one common characteristic: they looked like Conns and played a lot like them. Right at the beginning of WWII, VKS started producing horns that started to go a bit more further from that design and I've commented that the "single sided" keywork of the "VKS Model" bari was something distinctly different.
Pete, sorry, I can see why you're using VKS and Kohlert as 2 different entities.
From your saxpics article, (which I first read a couple of years ago) I thought you were referring to the pressed steel guard models with VKS stamped out of them as VKS models, not the entire pre-WWII production. And this is the way I was using the names.
There's a brief article on the the mergers in East Germany which led to B&S at saxwelt.de, but there isn't an english version.
As for quality, I've no view on the matter - I added the comment because the guy sees all the pre WWII saxes from that area as German, not German/Czech.
From your saxpics article, (which I first read a couple of years ago) I thought you were referring to the pressed steel guard models with VKS stamped out of them as VKS models, not the entire pre-WWII production. And this is the way I was using the names.
There's a brief article on the the mergers in East Germany which led to B&S at saxwelt.de, but there isn't an english version.
As for quality, I've no view on the matter - I added the comment because the guy sees all the pre WWII saxes from that area as German, not German/Czech.
No worries
I've seen it and used it as a bit of reference. I don't read/speak German, so if the articles are really long, I sometimes skip right on by.
Languages to learn:
- French
- Spanish (because of where I live)
- Portugese (that Brazilian manufacturer; "Lopes," I think.
- Japanese
- Chinese
- Taiwanese
- Italian
- German
- Flemish
Well, if I live to be 200, I might fit 'em all in ....
btw, is a Mexiconn a US or Mexican sax? ;-)
Nope. It's the one that "got away". I did buy this York keyless soprano, however. I just can't remember why.
Just cover the tone holes with plate and practice octave bends.....