Well, here's yet another Germanic Maker ....

pete

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
Kurt Gropp. Models produced were Vogtlandsperle and PerlGold. Mostly known for stringed instruments.

* SOTW thread with pics.
* Some Kurt Gropp info.
* MusicaViva entry.

So. A beveled-tone-hole horn produced in the Breitenfeld area. Mmmm.

I've been kinda thinking about how all Germanic makers are related. From 1949 to 1972, there were two horns that looked very simular: the Hohner President (brought to you by Max Keilwerth) and the Werner Roth WERO Royal. The fun things to note:

* Yes, The Hohner President and WERO horns were both around from exactly 1949 to 1972.
* Hohner Presidents did have beveled tone holes at one time.
* The Hohner President, WERO and the Vogtlandsperle all have the same bell-to-body brace.
* Werner Roth was based in Breitenfeld.
* You may have heard of Paul Emil Breitenfeld. He's moderately famous :p.

I've pointed out that there are quite a few keywork differences between the WERO and Hohner Presidents. There's a bunch more obvious differences in the Vogtlandsperle compared to the others, but there are some similarities.

*Sigh* I swear I'm gonna find some bit of research that says that all Germanic sax companies are really stencils from one manufacturer. At the very least, Germanic sax research is like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon (FWIW, I'm within 3 degrees of KB).
 
pete said:
*Sigh* I swear I'm gonna find some bit of research that says that all Germanic sax companies are really stencils from one manufacturer.
Click to expand...

:emoji_smile: That's not going to happen, but there was a lot of copying going on, that's for sure.

pete said:
At the very least, Germanic sax research is like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon (FWIW, I'm within 3 degrees of KB).
Click to expand...

We already know the Keilwerth brothers play a central role in German saxophone history, so maybe it should be 6 degrees of Keilwerth. ;-)

FWIW, I don't know if any of our European members here have already got Uwe Ladwig's compendium of the saxophone, but he just shipped me the 2nd edition on Saturday. I hadn't seen the first edition of the book yet, but it has received rave reviews in the European music press. He spent years not only researching European brands, but also American ones as well. It should make a very interesting resource and read. Sorry folks, it is only avialable in German.
 
As far as Keilwerth (hereafter abbreviated "JK") is concerned, I think that you could make the argument that JK was influenced by Kohlert before WWII. After WWII, JK influenced Amati, Kohlert (for a small while) and obviously Dorfler & Jurka (hereafter abbreviated "D&J") . The reason for saying it this way is because JK worked for Kohlert. After WWII, we have Amati horns with JK trademarks, names and parts and some Kohlert horns that were wholly made by Keilwerth. Of course, you've got the research, Helen, on how Keilwerth sued D&J for making their horns too much like theirs -- and then JK bought D&J.

IMO, after WWII you've got the West German branch that had the Keilwerth-influenced horns and the East German/Czech branch that was led by MIGMA/MUSICA. Unfortunately, there seems to be some leakage in my segregation, notably with the Hohner, Gropp and Roth instruments I mention on this page. There's also the various Hammerschmidts that look very different from the other run-of-the-mill Germanic horns.

So many horns, so little time ....
 
I wouldn't be too specific about the the Julius influence. Max was instrumental as well in Adler & Hüller (which of course were later absorbed into B&S). And don't forget, Max made lovely horns under his own "Pure Tone" label. I have been gathering them, but haven't been able to upload them yet. (So many saxes, so little time!)

I think if we were to develop a 6 degrees of Keilwerth, it should include both brothers. I think their combined reach goes quite far. IMHO though, Max made the prettier horns.
 
Although primarily known for his clarinets, Richard Keilwerth also made saxes under his own name - or were they stencils from his brothers?
 
Richard didn't make any. His were all Julius' stencils.
 
Richard Keilwerth had SX90s. No rolled tone hole rings. With all the recent fun and games with Buffet and Keilwerth, I dunno if RK sells any saxes anymore.

I think I've seen the "PureTone" stamp on some Amatis, too. I don't know if that's a good or bad indication.

I guess what all the Germanic marques boil down to, for me, is, "Is it more logical to have 20 to 50 companies in the same small area producing saxophones that just happen to look a lot a like or have a couple suppliers handing out pre-made saxophone bodies on which you affix your own keywork?" I don't know the answer to that, but I would like to start grouping some of the Germanic horns by feature-set and see what happens. I also think that it's possible that we'll find that some horns were wildly dissimilar when first introduced and then they became homogenized through "membership" in clearing-houses like MIGMA/Musica.
 
The Pure Tone stamp with a bell was specific to Max's horns to my understanding. It was his specific trademark. There were a lot of different brands? models? I don't really know what to call them, that all had the Pure Tone stamp. One was even the named President, and yes, that was before he worked for Hohner--meaning there were 2 different types of President saxophones that Max Keilwerth produced. (And yes, they were quite different.)

If you did see an Amati with the Pure Tone stamp, that would be interesting to take a look at and compare the 2 stamps. M.K. did work for Amati briefly before working for Hohner, so it would be possible.

As far as Richard Keilwerth models are concerned, the more recents ones have been intermediate JKs.
 
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