Couesnon Low A Alto
- Thread starter pete
- Start date
Sold. $2075.
I hope AuCheung joins in (this is getting some way from a "For Sale" topic!)
I would really like to know how mechanically the sax copes with the keys. Tomorrow I will try and get time to post some photos to show how I had to change some of the tenor's mechanism to allow the venting to be more open because of the high F#. It looks like this alto (and I assume AuChung's is the same) might have the same problem.
And for the historians - what is the earliest sax make you know that had a production run with high G keyed?
Chris
I would really like to know how mechanically the sax copes with the keys. Tomorrow I will try and get time to post some photos to show how I had to change some of the tenor's mechanism to allow the venting to be more open because of the high F#. It looks like this alto (and I assume AuChung's is the same) might have the same problem.
And for the historians - what is the earliest sax make you know that had a production run with high G keyed?
Chris
Conn-O-Sax.
What do I win?
It's possible that A. Sax, himself, made horns with keyed range to altissimo G, just as he made at least one horn to low A. However, you need to ask yourself if you can consider any of A. Sax's saxophones "high production" models. They all seem somewhat different.
What do I win?
It's possible that A. Sax, himself, made horns with keyed range to altissimo G, just as he made at least one horn to low A. However, you need to ask yourself if you can consider any of A. Sax's saxophones "high production" models. They all seem somewhat different.
Respect!
Interested to see the photos.
Re the upper stack, do you mean the feet were hitting the F# key rod, even with thin material glued to them? Or is it the octave mechanism that caused the upper stack (or just G?) to need to be too low? Anyway I guess the photos would clarify.
Here are the photos
The first shows the additional metal work for the F# mechanism.
This obstructs the lever from the G key that would normally have no outgoing restriction.
The F# mechanism is hit by the lever, and also hit by the fork of the body octave pip mechanism
As the lever had a very limited travel, it directly affected the amount of venting the G pad had
So I had to file away the lever and the fork
and this shows the action with top G down (G upper stack and octave lever)
Finally, once the G pad cup had more movement to vent, I had to file down the feet to allow it to vent higher
With the G better vented, that was used as the reference point to vent the upper and lower stacks more, also requiring the feet to be filed to allow them to open more
I am sure there are other ways of dealing with the issue, and better ways, but this was the solution my hobbyist mind came up with....
Chris
The first shows the additional metal work for the F# mechanism.
This obstructs the lever from the G key that would normally have no outgoing restriction.
The F# mechanism is hit by the lever, and also hit by the fork of the body octave pip mechanism
As the lever had a very limited travel, it directly affected the amount of venting the G pad had
So I had to file away the lever and the fork
and this shows the action with top G down (G upper stack and octave lever)
Finally, once the G pad cup had more movement to vent, I had to file down the feet to allow it to vent higher
With the G better vented, that was used as the reference point to vent the upper and lower stacks more, also requiring the feet to be filed to allow them to open more
I am sure there are other ways of dealing with the issue, and better ways, but this was the solution my hobbyist mind came up with....
Chris
Thanks for the photos. A few thoughts...
How could they miss that in the factory? Is it a student model and they just didn't invest the time to realize it was way too stuffy?
It looks like a lot of filing was needed for the G key hinge rod to open enough and not hit the F# key hinge rod before closing. Is it possible the F# posts were bent (towards you in playing position) so it was blocking those parts more than they did originally? Unlikely to make finling unecessary, but could make the problem worse.
Is it possible that the octave mechanism in that area is too high (in comprison with the body) so the entire thing should be lower, allowing G to move more? It doesn't look like the arm connected to the body octave key is bent, but maybe it is, or maybe the sleeve could be thinner (and fork adjuted for it, or use thinner cork (for me preferably other material), the pad should be thinner, etc.
Just some possiblities, not that I see a problem with your finling. Not at all.
You mentioned the too low upper stack also making the lower stack too low. A bit off topic but it is not that uncommon to modify the Bis Bb linkage arm (by bending and/or grinding/filing) to control the relationship between the stacks. So if one of the stacks needs to be a certain height, you can still make the other stack higher or lower if that works better.
I assume from your post the relationship between the stacks was fine, just they were both too low. I'm not sure why the too low G caused the entire upper stack to be low. Were the other keys just adjusted to the same height? Why? I think it is better to accept just a stuffy A than have all the stack notes stuffy! So I don't know why the entire upper stack had to be too low because of the octave mechanism and G key issue...?
Re raising the stack, it looks like you used quite thick cork for both the linkages and for bumpers. You can use thinner cork (or other material) for bumpers and thinner material for the linkages, then adjust height (if more is necessary) and closing by bending the keys, which is standard by repairers and factories.
How could they miss that in the factory? Is it a student model and they just didn't invest the time to realize it was way too stuffy?
It looks like a lot of filing was needed for the G key hinge rod to open enough and not hit the F# key hinge rod before closing. Is it possible the F# posts were bent (towards you in playing position) so it was blocking those parts more than they did originally? Unlikely to make finling unecessary, but could make the problem worse.
Is it possible that the octave mechanism in that area is too high (in comprison with the body) so the entire thing should be lower, allowing G to move more? It doesn't look like the arm connected to the body octave key is bent, but maybe it is, or maybe the sleeve could be thinner (and fork adjuted for it, or use thinner cork (for me preferably other material), the pad should be thinner, etc.
Just some possiblities, not that I see a problem with your finling. Not at all.
You mentioned the too low upper stack also making the lower stack too low. A bit off topic but it is not that uncommon to modify the Bis Bb linkage arm (by bending and/or grinding/filing) to control the relationship between the stacks. So if one of the stacks needs to be a certain height, you can still make the other stack higher or lower if that works better.
I assume from your post the relationship between the stacks was fine, just they were both too low. I'm not sure why the too low G caused the entire upper stack to be low. Were the other keys just adjusted to the same height? Why? I think it is better to accept just a stuffy A than have all the stack notes stuffy! So I don't know why the entire upper stack had to be too low because of the octave mechanism and G key issue...?
Re raising the stack, it looks like you used quite thick cork for both the linkages and for bumpers. You can use thinner cork (or other material) for bumpers and thinner material for the linkages, then adjust height (if more is necessary) and closing by bending the keys, which is standard by repairers and factories.
"How can they miss this in the factory"
Was my thought entirely, but more importantly, given its age, how come a repairer had not addressed it by now!? You are among the many repairers who say they commonly modify factory flaws to produce a sax better than that leaving the factory.
It is a Monopole model, so presumed professional standard
The F# posts are not bent, and all three (2 ends and a middle "U" guide post) look as they should
The octave mechanism does not really have any adjustment movement potential, either to have been bent out of adjustment, or to move it into adjustment from current position. The metal work is all too short and stubby to bend as far as I can see.
As you say, the low G did not actually mechanically cause the upper stack to be low, but the upper stack was set to be comparable to the G, and were therefore low.
Because the bis pad venting had a small travel, the axillary F pad (over the tone hole that G emerges from) that activates the bis lever needed a small travel too, which dictated lower stack venting heights.
I know I could have done more with key bending, but the cup arms are quite chunky and not an easy bend. I only have a selection of dental extraction pliers to help key bending and though infinitely better than nothing, they are not ideal.
Below is a picture of the key arms - quite difficult to bend
Chris
Was my thought entirely, but more importantly, given its age, how come a repairer had not addressed it by now!? You are among the many repairers who say they commonly modify factory flaws to produce a sax better than that leaving the factory.
It is a Monopole model, so presumed professional standard
The F# posts are not bent, and all three (2 ends and a middle "U" guide post) look as they should
The octave mechanism does not really have any adjustment movement potential, either to have been bent out of adjustment, or to move it into adjustment from current position. The metal work is all too short and stubby to bend as far as I can see.
As you say, the low G did not actually mechanically cause the upper stack to be low, but the upper stack was set to be comparable to the G, and were therefore low.
Because the bis pad venting had a small travel, the axillary F pad (over the tone hole that G emerges from) that activates the bis lever needed a small travel too, which dictated lower stack venting heights.
I know I could have done more with key bending, but the cup arms are quite chunky and not an easy bend. I only have a selection of dental extraction pliers to help key bending and though infinitely better than nothing, they are not ideal.
Below is a picture of the key arms - quite difficult to bend
Chris
On the positive side, I guess because of the poor tone it had been abandoned.
Which means that it was tarnished to the point of being black when I got it, and sounded stuffy, I bought it for less than £200. Putting a bit of work in it (and Steve Howard got all the rolled tone holes flat with some body work for me) I now have a nice spare tenor
Chris
So someone made all stack notes stuffy just to match the height of the G? Maybe they didn't want the A to "stick out" as stuffy but still...
It didn't "need" a small travel. You (i.e. anyone) could allow the lower stack to open more and accept double action before it was hitting the Bis Bb linkage arm. But since the upper stack was already completely unecessarily too low to match the G, not surprising.
What I explained re the stack relationship is that it's possible to control the shape of the Bis Bb linkage arm so the stacks don't have to be opened the same as intended by the original design, if that is not best. To clarify a bit more, let's say you find the best opening for each stack, then adjust so F# closes Bis Bb. You now have, at open position, either double action between F# linkage arm and Bis Bb linkage arm (lower stack opening more than upper stack), or the Bis Bb linkage arm is hitting F# linakge arm leaving a gap between Bis Bb and the A touchpiece (upper stack opening more than lower stack). It is then often possible to change the linkage at open position only, to remove double action, or let Bis raise more, while not messing with closing of Bb by the linkage.
But to emphasize, the Bis small travel doesn't make the lower stack necessarily low too.
Key arms are usually bent for controling alignment of key cups over tone holes, but for raising and/or lowering keys they are not necessarily bent at all. It is the twisting between the key arms and the key feet that raises or lowers keys. Very common to do this with almost no tools. I often use my fingers, sometimes with a "shim" (e.g. pad slick) under my finger for more easily pressing on a small area (like a key foot), but just as often don't even bother doing that.
So the way I see it, this sax had an issue with the F# key hinge and octave mechanism interfering with the G key, not allowing it to open enough. The rest of the issues were totally unecessary for any reason other than silliness of whoever put them on the sax...
Nitai
Thanks for your post, clear and instructive as always. There are all sorts of design issues with the keys of this instrument. The stack keys have holes in the metal where the springs engage, rather than cradles. I really don't like working with those! And the feet to body contact were contoured such that only the tip of the foot made contact - a tiny surface area. So as they were stopping venting anyway, it made sense to me to reshape them a little to give a greater contact area to reduce noise and make it likely regulation lasted longer reduced small areas of compression.
And bending metal well and safely is a skilled art that comes with practice and it would take me much longer to get it right with bending than filing and cork. I will keep practicing!
Rule number one in my job is "do no harm", and that extends to my instruments too!...
Thanks for your post, clear and instructive as always. There are all sorts of design issues with the keys of this instrument. The stack keys have holes in the metal where the springs engage, rather than cradles. I really don't like working with those! And the feet to body contact were contoured such that only the tip of the foot made contact - a tiny surface area. So as they were stopping venting anyway, it made sense to me to reshape them a little to give a greater contact area to reduce noise and make it likely regulation lasted longer reduced small areas of compression.
And bending metal well and safely is a skilled art that comes with practice and it would take me much longer to get it right with bending than filing and cork. I will keep practicing!
Rule number one in my job is "do no harm", and that extends to my instruments too!...