How to choose pads

[Groovekiller]

How to choose pads? The easy answer is, DON'T!

The rough choice is Roo or Non-Roo, supposedly. But the real choice is:
A. Size
B. Thickness
C. Hard or soft, woven or pressed felt
D. Covering (Here's the Roo - Non Roo controversy)
E. Treatment of the pad covering (Waterproof? How?)

These variables account for maybe 10% of how well your horn behaves.

The other 90% depends on how well the pads are installed, and even more important, how well problems are eliminated from the mechanism before the pads are installed.

As for the selection of pads, and even resonators, different repairmen are more familiar with different pads. A good repairman will know what works best on your horn.

Most repairmen will agree to install resonators that you request. If he/she suggests something different, listen, and decide for yourself after you've considered all points of view. Generally, Big=bright; small, or none=dark.

The shape of resonators can affect tuning, especially on small saxes. If pitch is reasonably good with the original pads, consider using similar pads and resonators.

 

[jbtsax]

That is very well said. There are several sources for top quality pads available only to the repair profession. Overhaul and/or repad customers should be discouraged from trying to buy their own set of pads to provide to the tech doing the work. Some people are under the false impression that they can save money this way. The fact is that it greatly increases the chances that not all the pads they bought will fit properly or even be the right thickness for the key cups. It also limits them to the pads sold to the general public.

Talking it over with the repair tech doing the work beforehand and listening to his/her suggestions can not be over emphasized. Thanks for starting a thread on this important topic.

John

 

[pete]

Of course, it's an easy choice if you have a Buescher: get the Snap-On pads. Unless, of course, you're looking for something non-original.

As a comment, I'd love it if one of you repair guys could talk about replacing pads on a "vintage" horn with non-original stuff. As mentioned, the vast quantity of Buescher horns won't have a problem because the "original" pads are available through places like MusicMedic.com, but what about repadding, say, the Buffet Dynaction I had? Buffet doesn't make pads for this model anymore. I know thickness makes a difference, but how do I measure this and where can I find places that sell pads by thickness?

 

[Groovekiller]

The instrument itself will dictate the proper thickness, and any decent repair person will be able to determine what's correct. Most pad suppliers offer at least medium and thin pads and they will work 95% of the time. I have occasionally had to resort to using bass clarinet pads on saxes.

 

[Helen]

You know, picking out pads is something that I would never consider doing. That's what techs are for. That's why I pay them. They have the knowledge & the expertise. I don't. I usually talk with them about it... Like with Sarge when I get him to rebuild a horn, I decide which quality I want to go with...But bringing in a set of pads seems to be really just asking for complications you don't need.

When it comes to resos I did ask my tech to put on crinkle type--don't know if they were Noyaks or not--about 10 years or so ago on my Mark VI tenor. That was when I was playing in a rock band, and needed the extra brilliance that those resos are known for. If I understand correctly, what makes those particular resos sound like they do, is the fact that surface area is greater. Do I have that right Groovekiller? However, I can tell you, when I moved out of the Maritimes, and back to West Coast, and was using my Mark VI for jazz, the resos had to go.

 

[jbtsax]

For the majority of saxophones one of two thickness sizes will work the best. The most common thicknesses are .160 - .165 ", and .185 ". Most pad suppliers Allied, Ferrees, Ed Kraus, Pisoni supply pads in different thicknesses. Music Medic pads are mostly .160 - .165 " but they sell shims for saxes that take the thicker pads to cut down the amount of shellac needed. Please note: Allied and Ed Krause sell only to the repair trade.

To determine which thickness of pad to use, one simply removes several of the old pads and measures them with a caliper. It is not an exact science, but one can quickly get a feel for which thickness works the best.

If one's installation technique includes coating the entire back of the pad with shellac, it is obviously better to err on the side of going with a pad slightly too thin or a lot of key bending may be required to get the front of the key to close. Sometimes key bending is necessary, but it is best to avoid having to do it if at all possible. There is a difference between "key straightening" and "key bending".

Most well equipped shops will stock both thicknesses of sax pads in all sizes to accommodate all models that come through. Since the majority of our work is play conditions we stock the Allied .185" and the Ferrees .160 pads. For custom overhauls or repads we give the customer a choice of upgrading to a premium pad for an additional charge, and of course a choice of resonators.

 

[pete]

To determine which thickness of pad to use, one simply removes several of the old pads and measures them with a caliper. It is not an exact science, but one can quickly get a feel for which thickness works the best.

Which is fine, if the horn has at least one intact pad and/or the intact pads are the correct ones. I've seen lots of horns that don't have any pads or the ones that are there are badly ripped up/waterlogged so they're obviously outsized -- and I've seen more than one repadded horn that had pads that were way too thick.

How does one determine what works if you don't have an old pad to go by?

 

[Groovekiller]

First the keys are straightened until the pad cup is centered over the tone hole, and both the tone hole and the pad cup are perfectly flat. When the gap between the tonehole and the pad cup is parallel in all directions, the pad that comes closest to filling the gap and hitting the tonehole all the way around is the right thickness.

On the same horn, not all keys will require the same thickness pads, which is another reason that it is foolish to buy pads by the set.

 

[clarnibass]

I agree with most of this thread. Just to add some things.

The rough choice is Roo or Non-Roo, supposedly. But the real choice is:
A. Size
B. Thickness
C. Hard or soft, woven or pressed felt
D. Covering (Here's the Roo - Non Roo controversy)
E. Treatment of the pad covering (Waterproof? How?)

I think the most critical is the quality of these parameters. For example, the consistency of the thickness of the entire pad and of the diameters around the pad. Also the same between different pads of the same model. Some pads are too out of round and have incosistent thickness. Luckily this is relatively rare with high quality ones.

I think the roo vs. non-roo is more of a marketing thing than a correct devision of different types. I found huge differences between different non-roo pads, while some non-roo pads are not so different from roo pads, except in colour. Though there are white and black non-roo pads too.

Generally I found that roo pads are relatively high quality. But, the main claim for the advantage of roo pads is that they are not sticky. After seeing many now (almost all the black Saxgourmet ones), I came to the conclusion they are not less sticky than some non-roo pads, that are also resistant to being sticky. Some non-roo pads can be very sticky. If someone had a sticky type, most likely the roo pads would seem less sticky in comparison.

Also, in as identical conditions as possible, I found the black roo pads that I've seen tend to harden and start leaking earlier than expected. Suggesting their felt absorbed water and dirt more.

I think the comparison of roo vs. non-roo is synthetic. Most people probably don't even know what animal the leather of their non-roo pads even comes from.

Of course, it's an easy choice if you have a Buescher: get the Snap-On pads. Unless, of course, you're looking for something non-original.

IMO trying to be original while compromising quality is a psychological problem If someone is happy to live with that, it's ok. A lot of people live with much worse psychological problems, that's for sure.

As a comment, I'd love it if one of you repair guys could talk about replacing pads on a "vintage" horn with non-original stuff.

There is no problem as long as the result is good i.e. they seal with a light touch so comfortable for the player to play. As other mentioned, the result will be determined based on the quality of the pads rather than their material or originality, and mainly the quality of the work of the person installing the pads. I think I remember one person selling the Buescher pads, claiming they are not as good as some other pads.

and was using my Mark VI for jazz, the resos had to go.

I recently saw even more experiments about human expectations. It's pretty incredible. The last being testing pain. A group of people had electric shocks. Then all took a pill. One group was told to take a pill that increases the sensitivity of the nerves, so more pain. Another group was told to take a pain killer which should help. With the identical shocks as before, all in the first group thought they felt more pain, and asked to stop eariler. All in the second group could tolerate more pain. In reality, none of the pill did anything, they were all placebos. I feel the same happens with resonators and other things like that. At least until I see real evidence.

Re resonators in general, I order pads with resonators already installed. This is the type of resonator that is most common here and by far the majority of players prefer. So it saves money by not having to waste time installing resonators. If someone wants a different type I will replace them, and sometimes replace without being asked to match the resonators on the sax.

For the majority of saxophones one of two thickness sizes will work the best. The most common thicknesses are .160 - .165 ", and .185 ". Most pad suppliers Allied, Ferrees, Ed Kraus, Pisoni supply pads in different thicknesses. Music Medic pads are mostly .160 - .165 " but they sell shims for saxes that take the thicker pads to cut down the amount of shellac needed. Please note: Allied and Ed Krause sell only to the repair trade.

I use mm sizes, usually 4.0mm and some 4.5mm. Generally agree, though I found very few saxophones need the thicker pads. Actually it's very rare. I'd say at least 90% of saxophones best match with the 4.0mm pads. I've seen a few saxophones that needed even thinner pads, where I had to use bass clarinet pads. The original (from factory) pad was less than 3.5mm. Surprisingly, one of those was a Selmer Paris!

BTW Kraus Music is the only source I know of that will only sell to registered repairers (and repair shops, stores with repairers, etc.). Allied never asked me for anything when I ordered first time.

If one's installation technique includes coating the entire back of the pad with shellac

I think everyone's installation method should include that. Otherwise you can get air bubbles and less reliable sealing i.e. no solid back. This doesn't necessarily mean floating. The layer of glue can be as thin as possible to still make sure there are no air gaps, the entire cardboard is covered with glue, and the entire back of the pad is glued to the key cup. I prefer this method as the most reliable, but occasionally use floating and other methods when necessary or preferable.

Sometimes key bending is necessary, but it is best to avoid having to do it if at all possible. There is a difference between "key straightening" and "key bending".

I kind of disagree with that. Straightening is done by bending. In some cases there is no difference. This depends on the instrument, but there are situation where it is not best to avoid bending, in fact sometimes bending (not "straightening") will get better results without disadvantage. Though some instruments are poorly designed and keys don't bend where they should. Sometimes I shape keys to work better in that respect.

First the keys are straightened until the pad cup is centered over the tone hole, and both the tone hole and the pad cup are perfectly flat.

I think there are two things worth mentioning about this. First, sometimes the design doesn't allow key cups to be centered over tone holes, both front/back or side-to-side. Second, for leveling pad cups, it is important to mention that the back of the pad cup is what's important, as opposed to the rim.

How does one determine what works if you don't have an old pad to go by?

You put a pad in a key and check if it matches. I sometimes do this even when the original pad was there.

For the original question of how to choose pads, what I did, and I assumed many other repairers did too, is try many types and compare them. I've tried probably around ten models thoroughly. I changed the type of pads I stock too after finding a type I preferred more. I judged all by trying more than just a few samples. Unfortunately this is expensive but was worth it to me in the end for finding a pad I really like and think is excellent. In addition there are more types of pads I know by seeing them often on saxophones, none of these made change yet.

 

[jbtsax]

I use mm sizes, usually 4.0mm and some 4.5mm. Generally agree, though I found very few saxophones need the thicker pads. Actually it's very rare. I'd say at least 90% of saxophones best match with the 4.0mm pads. I've seen a few saxophones that needed even thinner pads, where I had to use bass clarinet pads. The original (from factory) pad was less than 3.5mm. Surprisingly, one of those was a Selmer Paris!

This is interesting because the majority of saxophones that we repair in our shop in the US take the .185" (4.7 mm) thickness pads. Yamahas and some of the vintage saxes that come through need the .160" (4.06 mm) pads.

I kind of disagree with that. Straightening is done by bending. In some cases there is no difference. This depends on the instrument, but there are situation where it is not best to avoid bending, in fact sometimes bending (not "straightening") will get better results without disadvantage. Though some instruments are poorly designed and keys don't bend where they should. Sometimes I shape keys to work better in that respect.

What I meant when I said that "key bending" and "key straightening" were not the same is that "key straightening" means putting a key that has been bent and displaced back to its original position. Key bending to me means raising or lowering the back of the key cup to accommodate a given thickness of pad. It can also mean correcting factory misalignments on poorly made instruments.

You put a pad in a key and check if it matches. I sometimes do this even when the original pad was there.

Curt Alterac calls this "dry fitting". It is also an excellent way for us "floaters" to determine how much shellac to use.

 

[Helen]

I recently saw even more experiments about human expectations. It's pretty incredible. The last being testing pain. A group of people had electric shocks. Then all took a pill. One group was told to take a pill that increases the sensitivity of the nerves, so more pain. Another group was told to take a pain killer which should help. With the identical shocks as before, all in the first group thought they felt more pain, and asked to stop eariler. All in the second group could tolerate more pain. In reality, none of the pill did anything, they were all placebos. I feel the same happens with resonators and other things like that. At least until I see real evidence.

Huh? What are you saying? I expected a difference in sound, so I heard one? What about the people (both musicians and audience members alike) who were already familiar with my sound, and heard my sound after the overhaul, but had no idea that I had different resos installed, but who however heard a difference in my sound as well? Did I project my hallucination onto them? Or did I just play with more subconscious brilliance & they heard that? If I understand you correctly, you would then also say that all players & techs who hear a difference with crinkle resos are suffering from some form of auditory hallucination?

As Groove already mentioned in this thread, the size of the reso is what makes the difference. That's my understanding why the Noyaks have a slightly different sound. They have a slightly bigger surface area due to the crinkles. I was looking if Groove--or any of the other techs--could confirm this for me. I guess I know what your views on the subject are.

 

[Carl H.]

Stickiness comparisons between the black Roo and the non sticky non-roo pads are fine, but the Black Roo are considered more likely to be sticky than the white Roo. I have white roo in 4 saxes of mine and none of them experience any stickiness or premature aging/deterioration.

Years ago my soprano was the first install of white Roo my tech did. The second job she did was her personal MK VI alto. Since then I have had nothing but white Roo installed. I see no good reason to have anything else installed.

I had a tenor with not so great condition rolled tone holes. Curt worked with her to create a less firm - NOT SOFT - Roo pad. I don't know if this was a one off, second line or change to all the white Roo pads, but Curt is listening to what techs say about and want from his pads. Anybody else getting their pad supplier to do this?

 

[clarnibass]

This is interesting because the majority of saxophones that we repair in our shop in the US take the .185" (4.7 mm) thickness pads. Yamahas and some of the vintage saxes that come through need the .160" (4.06 mm) pads.
I don't know why this is. Maybe there is a type of saxophone using the thicker pads very common in your area that is not common here (and vise versa).

What I meant when I said that "key bending" and "key straightening" were not the same is that "key straightening" means putting a key that has been bent and displaced back to its original position. Key bending to me means raising or lowering the back of the key cup to accommodate a given thickness of pad. It can also mean correcting factory misalignments on poorly made instruments.

Yes, I understood this is what you meant. I agree with the definition but don't agree that bending is worse than straightening. I think it's better not to assume the original position of a key is the best. Many times it's not. Also, sometimes you can't really know. Some keys in their original position are off. IME bending, if done carefully, won't damage anything, as long as the repairer had the right feel for it (I would guess you do ).

 

[clarnibass]

If I understand you correctly, you would then also say that all players & techs who hear a difference with crinkle resos are suffering from some form of auditory hallucination?

No, I wouldn't say that. I also wasn't saying anything that you seem to think I was saying. You misinterpreted my post. I wasn't claiming anything. I was just skeptical to the effect of something like this, as many tests PROVE is entirely possible. In the pain test I mentioned, people actually felt more pain, eventhough it was exactly the same, and they took nothing to increase it or help against it, except psychologically. Since you are human, your senses are not immune to this. I did make my own tests, PROVING saxophone players (including excellent very high level ones) can hear differences when there are none. I think a good starting point to truely understanding something is to question it. One thing is for sure, it's not surprising you sounded better/different after your saxophone had an overhaul.

Stickiness comparisons between the black Roo and the non sticky non-roo pads are fine, but the Black Roo are considered more likely to be sticky than the white Roo. I have white roo in 4 saxes of mine and none of them experience any stickiness or premature aging/deterioration.

It is common to see comments about the black and white roo pads skin being the same except colour. Maybe I'll ask Curt.

I had a tenor with not so great condition rolled tone holes. Curt worked with her to create a less firm - NOT SOFT - Roo pad. I don't know if this was a one off, second line or change to all the white Roo pads, but Curt is listening to what techs say about and want from his pads. Anybody else getting their pad supplier to do this?

Music Center, the maker of the pads I prefer, can make many different firmnesses and any thickness requested in any of the different types of leathers and felts they offer. I usually order a standard model from a supplier though. It is just as good as any specially made model as long as it fits the purpose and is much faster to order. The standard models are already available in different thicknesses and firmnesses, etc. so no special model necessary unless maybe an extreme unusual situation.

 

[Helen]

I did make my own tests, PROVING saxophone players (including excellent very high level ones) can hear differences when there are none. I think a good starting point to truely understanding something is to question it.

I did some research this AM to see if I could find some info about these resos, and happened across this interesting review by Stephen Howard. Apparently he had the same experiences as many of the rest of us. This is what he said:

The theory behind the unusual scalloped design of the Noyeks is that the angular surfaces distribute the sound waves in a more widely spread pattern - thus ( hopefully ) giving more volume and more response...

As for the Noyeks, I feel it's difficult to generalise the effect they have. I can certainly say that they'll give a YAS62 a bit more edge, but what they'll do to a different horn isn't possible to say without experience. I think it likely that they'll increase the punch and edginess, but this may not be an entirely good thing in some cases.

Thankfully they've been around a while, so there should be a wealth of personal experience to draw from in the sax playing community if you're considering them for your own horn.

Funnily enough, they may have rather more potential when used individually to adjust particular notes - perhaps livening up a lacklustre top C for example.

I posed my original question about the surface area of the star, Hollywood, Noyek, crinkle, whatever you want to call them resos, because I have only ever discussed any sonic differences they may cause with my own 2 techs (1 in Atlantic Canada, and 1 on here on the West Coast), and those discussions never involved reso size re: the crinkles. Other than that, I only have my own personal experiences, and those comments of my band mates, and the audience members to draw from. Oh, and the pre and post recordings, which were unfortunately not conducted under exactly the same conditions, therefore would not stand up to the rigors of a scientific study.

I would be most interested in hearing & reading the scientific evidence that you've produced through your tests. I think it would be fascinating. I believe we do definitely need more reproducible, valid, scientific research in the sax playing world. Perhaps then we could put some of these myths to bed. Myths such as the ones discussed by the 2 robots in the cartoon you linked to.

 

[pete]

Opinion: it'll be exactly like saying that the horn's finish makes a difference in sound. You'll never really be able to prove or disprove it.

When I got my Conn New Wonder tenor repadded 25 or so years ago, they asked if I wanted resonators installed. The horn didn't have any to begin with, so I asked what difference it'd make. The answer was a bit better projection and it helps the pads seal. All righty, then. I got nylon resos. The horn still sucked .

 

[MyMartinTenor]

I agree that its very difficult to prove anything with regard to effect of resonators, etc. I will say, from my own experience, that I recently got two vintage horns of a similar make (Martin Committee-I altos). I repadded one with black roo pads without resonators, and one with precision pads w/ flat metal resonators. I then got to side-by-side compare the horns.

FWIW, the horn w/out resonators was darker, had a bit more resistance, and significantly less volume and edge. The horn w/ resonators had a bit more brightness, a bit faster response, and significantly more volume and edge.

I understand this is not perfect -- the horns probably had other variances, pad setups cannot be exactly equal, etc etc etc.

But it was still interesting that there were noticeable differences w/ the same model horn, and that those differences so closely matched what people expect.

 

[Helen]

I'm not sure Pete. I'm not up on the physics and mathematics of sound, but sound waves can be measured. I would think that if you were to pad a horn with one type of reso and record it, and also use some device--that I'm sure exists, but I couldn't tell you the name of--that records the individual sound waves of each note produced by the horn you would get a "picture" as well as a audio file of what that horn sounds like. (Similar to the way voice analysis is conducted.) You then take the same horn, repad it with another type of reso, same type of pad, and play exactly the same music, in exactly the same recording setting, and then compare the visual pictures of the sound, as well as the audio files. You could then repad it again with no resos and repeat the process again. This for example, would give you 3 different reso variables, but would control for everything else. If done correctly, in theory, ought to be able to prove, or disprove, whether resos make any difference in sound at all. You could conduct your experiment using different types of resos, eg: metal vs. plastic, domed vs. flat, crinkle vs. domed, etc. etc.

This type of research could also be used to study the effects of saxophone finishes on horns. For example, if you wanted to study the effects of cryo treating a horn, this same procedure could be used.

There is very little scientific, reproducible, research done in the world of music. And I think if someone has done some, I believe it is a great step forward, because there are too many assumptions being thrown around as fact.

 

[pete]

My post from SOTW, in 2006. Just replace "finish" with "resonator."

--------------------

This is an interesting little mental exercise:

There are many, many folks out there that insist, despite evidence to the contrary, that the finish on a saxophone affects the tone.

This is a wholly unwinnable argument. It's also completely indefeatable.

Let me tell you why, by describing how to make a scientific test of what finish makes the best tone:

First, let me say that Vintage saxophones are not included in this conversation. Why? Several reasons:

* There is a good deal of evidence that gold plated and/or "virtuoso deluxe" finished vintage horns were subjected to better quality control and were made with a good deal more care than were introductory models.
* Manufacturing technique has changed a lot since 1843: most horns up until the 1920's were completely hand built and assembled. That means that there was significant variation between vintage horns.
* It is virtually impossible to get several horns of the same vintage model within a few serial numbers in the same condition.

=============

So, how to set up the experiment according to the Scientific Method:

* Obtain several horns of the same make and model within a couple serial numbers in different finishes. A good example is the Keilwerth SX90R because there are a LOT of finishes available.
* Decide what pitch and configuration you wish to test: let's just say "regular tenor".
* Have a single technician that's very well known for setting up that make/model of horn well look at each of the horns and make sure they're all set up EXACLY the same: pads, key height, spring tension. Everything. The works.

Here, however, we have to introduce the first flaw into this test: the technician may (consciously or not) set up, say, the gold plated model with more care than the lacquer model. That introduces an extra variable that we don't want into this equation, but I'm not aware of any technician out there that could set up a horn blind and while wearing gloves (you don't want the tech to FEEL the difference between the finishes).

* You then have to get several people that play close to stock as possible Keilwerth SX90R's that have as close to each other's playing ability as possible -- preferably folks that are professional musicians trained by the same person.

Here's the second flaw in our testing: you really can't make a robot to play the horn, without throwing more millions of dollars at this problem. If you took in "people off the street" to play the horn, they might have vastly different playing styles and/or just not like playing the SX90.

* You then have to make sure that the tester uses the SAME mouthpiece, reed and ligature setup.

Here's another flaw: how many people use, say, a Berg Larsen Hard Rubber 110/0 Duckbill, a #3 VanDoren Modele Jazz reed and a Rovner ligature? I thought so. You need to standardize this and probably the best solution is to make sure your musicians play on the stock Keilwerth mouthpiece, with the stock ligature and with the reeds that come with the horn. If you change ANY of this, you're adding variables.

Additionally, if you "force" people to use a specific setup, you're going to add another variable: some people just don't sound good on a specific type of mouthpiece/lig/reed combination, so you need to make sure you're players really, really like whatever setup you're testing and have played on it for a considerable time.

* You also need some impartial observers to listen to the test. They need to at least like the sound of the saxophone.

This really isn't a flaw, but this isn't scientific: we're trying to determine if a player's tone sounds different based on the finish. What better way to do that than to have others listen too?

* You need the science boys with their oscillioscopes or whatever they want to use to measure the sound.

=============

The test itself.

* Blindfold your musician and observer. Stick 'em into two soundproof rooms: one for the performer to play in and one for the listener to listen in.
* Hand the player a sax. Tell him to play an arpeggio and some scales. Maybe some long tones.

This introduces another flaw: unless the saxophone is played EXACTLY the same way by every performer, the test is basically worthless: I can play scales that sound so lush and full, you'll weep. Other performers might play them dry and boring. Once again, this would be resolved by our million dollar sax playing robot.

* Ask the musician and observer, seperately, to describe the sound (have a checklist with definitions, or some such). Ask them to guess the finish of the saxophone being played.
* Have the scientist boys look at the oscilliscopes and have them mark everything down.
* Have the players and observers run through the 20 finishes, TWICE. Alphabetically and then reverse alpha. Then mix 'em up. You'll get lots of data that could be charted as:

LACQUER FINISH. Player 1: describes as "dry", thinks finish is "nickel". Observer 1: describes as "mellow", thinks finish is "gold". Scientist reading: baseline.
SILVER PLATE FINISH. Player 1: describes as "dry", thinks finish is "gold". Observer 1: describes as "dry", thinks finish is "gold". Scientist reading: baseline.

Additionally, to make this a bit more of a "double blind" test, you should repeat the test with the performers and observers NOT blindfolded. You'll get some interesting data.

==============

It is possible, but unlikely, that you'll find that a certain finish does impact the sound. What does this prove? One thing and one thing only: that the finish makes a difference on only that make and model of saxophone with that mouthpiece, ligature and reed setup. You would then have to extend the test to other pitches and configurations of the same make and model and then you'd have to go to different mouthpiece ligature and reed setups.

You might be able to prove that, yes, finish makes a difference for that make and model of horn, only. And to do that you'd have to try thousands of variations, which would be something like:

Number of Finishes x Number of Pitch Configurations (i.e. "Straight tenor") x Number of Mouthpieces x Number of Mouthpiece Facings x Number of Mouthpiece Materials x Number of Reeds x Number of Reed Strengths x Number of Ligatures

The number is astronomical. And this is just for ONE make and model.

==============

Conclusioning:

This demonstrates why I could say something like, "If you put a raisin in your mouthpiece, it'll help you play altissimo." While it might help ME play altissimo on my Yamaha 52 baritone with my Sigurd Rascher mouthpiece and #3 VanDoren Modele Jazz reeds, there's no particular reason why it'd work on your horn -- and you can't prove that I'm a nutcase to do this on my horn with my setup and how I play, because it might work great on my horn and setup.

There have been a variety of studies on this (reference, for instance, http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin...p/t-28758.html and
http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/engli...inortner_e.htm). These tests are generally done on non-conical-bore woodwinds or brasswinds, because they're much easier to test. Some tests "conclude" that there is a difference in tone, some don't. None of them are as comprehensive as the test I mention above.

One of A. Sax's ideas behind the saxophone is that if you have the bore proportions right, a sax will sound like a sax, regardless of the material. This has been "proven" by the existence of bamboo and wooden saxophone variants and non metallic saxophones, like the Grafton Acrylic Alto.

There have also been a few tests regarding just taking a metal and then giving it a finish to try to find out what, if anything, happens to the metal itself. The results of this are hazy, at best and there doesn't appear to be any application of this to how a saxophone built out of this material would sound.

Something also needs to be mentioned about "cryogenic treatments". This is supposed to "removes residual and compressive stresses in the [building of a] saxophone by allowing the brass to return to its optimum structure". Again, experts are divided on whether this even does anything to the metal (see http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Uploads/cryo.html and http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=112765&page=8), much less than whether it impacts the tone of a saxophone.

This brings it down to: the thing that has the MOST impact on a saxophone's sound is YOU, the player. Maybe 20% of that sound can be attributed to the mouthpiece setup and the horn.

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OVERALL CONCLUSION: The best you could prove is that resonator A on specific model of sax -- with a specific serial number range and a specific finish, too, by the way -- behaves a certain way. If you use a specific mouthpiece and the original neck. There are just waaaay too many variables.

 

[MartinMods]

My post from SOTW, in 2006. Just replace "finish" with "resonator."

This brings it down to: the thing that has the MOST impact on a saxophone's sound is YOU, the player. Maybe 20% of that sound can be attributed to the mouthpiece setup and the horn.

OVERALL CONCLUSION: The best you could prove is that resonator A on specific model of sax -- with a specific serial number range and a specific finish, too, by the way -- behaves a certain way. If you use a specific mouthpiece and the original neck. There are just waaaay too many variables.

Yes, and No. There are lots of variables, but there are also acoustical considerations which are completely reliable regarding resonators which are not dependent upon the player. They must be applied to the individual instrument however.

Porous leather pads absorb acoustical energy.

If a horn has average aligned resonances, throughout it's range, then it will benefit (more resonance, more dynamic range, better response, richer tone quality) from having resonators on the pads, as that reduces the amount of porous pad surface. It will continue to improve (as the resonators increase in size) until the misaligned resonances, which also increase in amplitude, start to interfere with things. Then it will start to get worse.

If a horn has poorly aligned resonances, then installing resonators will not make it play better. It will play best with as much porous pad surface as possible. It will never be a good instrument.

If a horn has exceptionally aligned resonances, then it stands to benefit even more from properly proportioned, properly located over-sized resonators. As no instrument is perfect, it too will reach a point where those misaligned resonances start to interfere.

In general, best results are achieved with large or over-sized resonators in the upper half of the horn, while using more resonance damping pad surface in the lower half.

Pads: I've never been as happy as I am now since I make all my own pads. There is something to be said for having complete control over all materials, size, thickness, and treatments.