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How to choose pads

One of the points I was attempting to make is that the vast majority of how the horn sounds is up to you, the player. I fully accept that it is possible and even probable that resonators make a difference in your sound, but I think that that difference is not going to be consistent and that it's not going to be consistent across all makes.models/finishes of sax or which mouthpieces you use, etc.

I think you can do sonic studies of a single resonator, completely divorced from the saxophone, and say that it brightens a tone sent to it, etc. However, when you marry that resonator to a pad and put it in a sax, I think all bets are off.

Just an opinion, of course. I definitely could be wrong and I'm not an acoustician. I just don't know of any research that proves it one way or another.
 
I think you can do sonic studies of a single resonator, completely divorced from the saxophone, and say that it brightens a tone sent to it, etc. However, when you marry that resonator to a pad and put it in a sax, I think all bets are off.

Just an opinion, of course. I definitely could be wrong and I'm not an acoustician. I just don't know of any research that proves it one way or another.

It's basic, "How the Saxophone Works 101", and is covered in many of the publications listed here (under Books, Literature, and Websites, in this forum) and well worth the time it takes to read about. To understand what resonators do, you have to understand how the resonances of the air column co-operate at an integral frequency and maximum combined amplitude relationship, to make a tone. By covering up the sound sucking pad surface, resonators increase the amplitudes of the harmonic resonances (fundamental and it's harmonics). Depending on how far from integral (in tune frequency-wise), the peak amplitudes of the resonances are from the fundamental, resonators can improve or ruin the sound and response of a horn. This applies universally to all saxophones, regardless of make or model.
 
It's basic, "How the Saxophone Works 101", and is covered in many of the publications listed here (under Books, Literature, and Websites, in this forum) and well worth the time it takes to read about. To understand what resonators do, you have to understand how the resonances of the air column co-operate at an integral frequency and maximum combined amplitude relationship, to make a tone. By covering up the sound sucking pad surface, resonators increase the amplitudes of the harmonic resonances (fundamental and it's harmonics). Depending on how far from integral (in tune frequency-wise), the peak amplitudes of the resonances are from the fundamental, resonators can improve or ruin the sound and response of a horn. This applies universally to all saxophones, regardless of make or model.
Personally, I think that's a justification, rather than a reason. Why? Well, when Conn came up with the Resopad in 1918, generally accepted as the first "resonator," I tend to doubt that Conn spent the time, money and effort to do all of what you mentioned. I think it was more, "This is something we cooked up in the lab. They're cheap, easy to produce and work pretty well."

Again, 1918. That's a bit before the big sax craze in the 1920's. If you prefer, you can call the Buescher Snap-On the first resonator. That was in 1921 -- and it was designed more for "convenient" and not "brightens sound."

Another point is, while I can accept that Helen or I or anyone else that has played a sax for awhile and then has gotten resos put on it might be able to say that a horn sounds "brighter," (or, at least, "different") I don't think the difference is going to be that significant to the actual sound. In other words, player might be able to tell the difference, the listener probably won't. I also think that if you tested the sound on an oscilloscope (or whatever) the change is going to be so slight, it's insignificant. That's just what I think, though, and I could be wrong.

Hey! One of you folks must have the equipment to test a sound wave. Anybody have, say a couple Mark VI altos around the same serial number range, with the same finish, except one has resos and one doesn't? Or they have two different kinds of resos? Test 'em for us.
 
Re Helen's suggestions for experiments, the first problem would be that by the time you finished repadding, you couldn't even guarantee the reed is the same. Not to mention many other problems. So this wouldn't work.

I haven't done many real scientific experiments. Most of my experiments weren't meant to prove if something makes or doesn't make a difference. Most meant to show how human expectation makes it so subjective, so all the big and absurd claims that so many people make are actually impossible.

My problem is not people believing whatever they want to believe e.g. what different resonators do, what the finish does, etc. that is fine. Instead the problem is people repeating those beliefs as if they are facts, not realizing their subjectiveness. I guess people don't like to think their opinion is just an opinion and might be wrong. It is closest to religion really.

For resontaors, an experiment that might work reasonably is to use resonators that are easy to glue on and remove, changing them while the saxophone is assembled. Of course for control it must include several play tests of the exact same resontors too, without the player ever knowing what resonators are used.

I have tried once to glue much bigger than original resonators (original were very small) and the owner of this pro model saxophone said there was no difference. Proves nothing but he is a good player who notices small changes in his instruments. Re saxophones that are identical except the resonators, I also found differences in same model, very close serial number (bought at the same time from the same store), same finish, with same resonators, set up as idnetically as possible. This was a new professional model.

I also managed to "trick" players into thinking of differences like the finish, when they played blindfolded the same saxophone, for example (told one was silver plated and one was lacquer). etc. etc. Just a lot of experiments I do once in a while when someone is here for a while and doesn't mind. BTW I only bother trying these things with very high level professional players.
 
You could control for the reed by using a synthetic one, and only using it for the tests, and nothing else, hence you would get long-term playability. Certainly not insurmountable. Also, Harry Hartmann makes a custom reed for you that is "supposed" to be identical from one to next. I say "supposed" to be, because Harry makes that claim on his site, but I haven't tried going that route, so I can't vouch for the custom reed. Certainly an interesting possibility though.

And re Pete's comment

The best you could prove is that resonator A on specific model of sax -- with a specific serial number range and a specific finish, too, by the way -- behaves a certain way. If you use a specific mouthpiece and the original neck.

Only if you limit your test to 1 horn. I think this has the potential to be interesting PhD dissertation material, and as such would have to have a much larger sample size. You can control the reed as mentioned above, the mouthpiece, and then you can set your controls for original finish, original neck, blah, blah, ... and decide what horns to include in the study.
 
At a NAPBIRT convention a few years ago one of the techs set up a saxophone where the resonators could be changed by popping the old ones off and snapping the new ones in without removing the pads. A very good jazz player played the sax right before the lunch break with plastic resonators. During lunch the keys were removed and metal resonators were
snapped in. After lunch the same player played the same saxophone using the same mouthpiece and reed. About half the techs in the room said it sounded the same and half said it sounded different. The player said the sound might be different, but he wasn't sure.

The problem with this test of course is that there was an hour and a half break between trials. In addition, each tech would have needed to return to the same seat in the room, the room would need to have exactly the same number of people in it, and the player would have had to stand in exactly the same spot facing exactly the same direction.
 
Helen said:
And re Pete's comment
Me said:
The best you could prove is that resonator A on specific model of sax -- with a specific serial number range and a specific finish, too, by the way -- behaves a certain way. If you use a specific mouthpiece and the original neck.
Only if you limit your test to 1 horn. I think this has the potential to be interesting PhD dissertation material, and as such would have to have a much larger sample size. You can control the reed as mentioned above, the mouthpiece, and then you can set your controls for original finish, original neck, blah, blah, ... and decide what horns to include in the study.
Sorry. I might not have made my point clearly.

If you are using different makes/models of horn for your test -- say you're testing nylon resos vs. no resos on a silver-plated Selmer Mark VI alto and a silver-plated Conn Wonder Improved -- you can get the following results:

(You could also substitute "different" for "brighter" in the following list.)

* The Mark VI with reso sounds brighter
* The Wonder with reso sounds brighter

* The Mark VI with reso doesn't sound brighter
* The Wonder with reso doesn't sound brighter

* The Mark VI with reso doesn't sound brighter
* The Wonder with reso sounds brighter

* The Mark VI with reso sounds brighter
* The Wonder with reso doesn't sound brighter

(As a logical construct, it's both true, both false or one true and one false.)

... and if you've determined that one's brighter and one isn't, you've not proved anything other than there's the probability that resos can affect the sound on OTHER makes/models. Of course, also using a specific mouthpiece, ligature, and reed combination for a specific player. That's the fun thing about science: you can't make a law unless it's consistent in ALL cases.

=========

The long post I wrote on the previous page was, actually, to answer someone's question about how to construct a test for "material makes/doesn't make a difference" for a college dissertation :).
 
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You could control for the reed by using a synthetic one, and only using it for the tests, and nothing else, hence you would get long-term playability. Certainly not insurmountable. Also, Harry Hartmann makes a custom reed for you that is "supposed" to be identical from one to next. I say "supposed" to be, because Harry makes that claim on his site, but I haven't tried going that route, so I can't vouch for the custom reed. Certainly an interesting possibility though.
I've tried several types of synthetic reeds and found they are not that consistenet. They can also change after some days. Some change can happen without playing them, maybe from weather, etc. SO this wouldn't work and is not good enough. It's just impossible to rely on something that is supposed to be.

That maker claiming their reeds are identical... this is exactly the type of subjective marketing claims these experiments are trying to eliminate! :)

The experiment John described above is a decent start, of course it proves nothing in the way it was done, as it sounds like everyone knew the resonators were changed. I think it would have been interesting to use the opportunity to NOT change the resonators and see what the response is. If enough still claimed it was different, not knowing nothing was changed, it imediately shows the conditions are not consistent enough to test different resonators. Unfortunately it seems unrealistic to test something like that live, and it must be in a recording with several takes of each type, etc.
 
I am going to try repadding a Conn shooting stars alto, so I bought a set of precision pads with flat resonators from MusicMedic.I hope the sets pad sizes are correct.
 
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