What do you guys think of these horns. Aparrently, from what I have read, their built quality is rather inconsistent. On the other hand, I own a straight Rampone R1 Jazz soprano sax in silver plate, and it actually seems to be put together decently well. Importantly, I really like the tone of it, which is dark, mellow, and somewhat spread. Quite different from the few other sopranos I have tried except for a beautiful vintage Conn but I had trouble with the vintage palm keys. I am not much of a soprano player at all, so my impressions are probably not terribly meaningful. I haven't tried any other modern horns from R&C, so any thoughts/impressions would be appreciated.
Modern Rampone and Cazzani
- Thread starter steen
- Start date
At one time I owned an R&C tipped bell soprano, a sopranino, and an alto. I bought the soprano and 'nino new from WW&BW - both in gold-plate. The alto I got in a trade - it was silver.
The tipped-bell (they called it a saxello but I also owned a real Saxello - by King - and the R&C was light years better than that) was a gorgeous instrument - played well, too. Still, none of these R&C saxophones tripped my trigger and I moved them on.
One problem with the tipped bell soprano was that I couldn't find a stand for it and found it difficult to set aside when I switched to alto or clarinet during a performance. Another issue with the tipped-bell soprano was a weak high end compared to other sopranos I own/owned.
All three were nicely made, decent modern saxophones, so from my experience, I wouldn't call them inconsistent.
I understand your dislike of the old Conn's palm keys. I owned one of those along with a Mark VI and they both had the in-line palm keys. I also own a Taiwanese-made Mark VI clone soprano with those in-line palm keys and I have never cared for them. The more recent Conns had standard-designed palm keys (forked like most other saxophones) although I don't know when Conn switched designs - somewhere in the late 1920's, I believe.
Right now, my first-choice soprano is a 1928 Buescher straight - the best soprano I've ever owned; and for alto, a mid-1920's Buescher TT. I have many others (vintage and modern) but if I could have only one of each, the TT's would be the ones. DAVE
The tipped-bell (they called it a saxello but I also owned a real Saxello - by King - and the R&C was light years better than that) was a gorgeous instrument - played well, too. Still, none of these R&C saxophones tripped my trigger and I moved them on.
One problem with the tipped bell soprano was that I couldn't find a stand for it and found it difficult to set aside when I switched to alto or clarinet during a performance. Another issue with the tipped-bell soprano was a weak high end compared to other sopranos I own/owned.
All three were nicely made, decent modern saxophones, so from my experience, I wouldn't call them inconsistent.
I understand your dislike of the old Conn's palm keys. I owned one of those along with a Mark VI and they both had the in-line palm keys. I also own a Taiwanese-made Mark VI clone soprano with those in-line palm keys and I have never cared for them. The more recent Conns had standard-designed palm keys (forked like most other saxophones) although I don't know when Conn switched designs - somewhere in the late 1920's, I believe.
Right now, my first-choice soprano is a 1928 Buescher straight - the best soprano I've ever owned; and for alto, a mid-1920's Buescher TT. I have many others (vintage and modern) but if I could have only one of each, the TT's would be the ones. DAVE
I just tried a bunch of them a few days ago. Their design (in a mechanical sense) seems pretty good. In some ways better than other professional models and in some ways worse. I'd say they are less consistent than let's say Yanagisawa, but they have their own character and it depends if you like it. What I mean is that I and others liked some of the models from them more than others.
Trying all the instruments (was at Frankfurt Musikmesse) convinced even more than before that I will not get into subjective description of the tone etc. so much because it is, well, too subjective. If there is something obvious I'll mention but in this case I don't think there is.
Nitai
Trying all the instruments (was at Frankfurt Musikmesse) convinced even more than before that I will not get into subjective description of the tone etc. so much because it is, well, too subjective. If there is something obvious I'll mention but in this case I don't think there is.
Nitai
I tried out a used silver R1 alto in Sam Ash NYC. Frankly, it didn't tickle my GAS button. For me, it lacked resonance and depth overall as compared to my SDA. It was somewhat thin on the top end. The construction and ergos were first rate. Still, I wanted more for my ears. I put down quickly and didn't give much of a chance. Maybe there are better examples out there to try.
I also played a silver 82Z next to it and the Yamaha blew (pun intended) it away. I still want that horn.
I also played a silver 82Z next to it and the Yamaha blew (pun intended) it away. I still want that horn.
I have the same sop as you Steen, the R&C R1 Jazz heavy vintage silverplate.
I am no expert, but it seems well crafted with the odd hand made imperfection that adds to its charm.
I'd like to do something with the thumbhook though.
I slid a piece of clear vinyl tubing over it to make the horn more comfortable to hold.
I agree, the tone is lovely.
It is rich and doesn't have the nasally whine, so overbearingly dominant in some other sops.
I find it very heavy for its size.
I am wondering if less weight contributes to a more nasal tone in a soprano?
Or, is it the player not the horn?
I am no expert, but it seems well crafted with the odd hand made imperfection that adds to its charm.
I'd like to do something with the thumbhook though.
I slid a piece of clear vinyl tubing over it to make the horn more comfortable to hold.
I agree, the tone is lovely.
It is rich and doesn't have the nasally whine, so overbearingly dominant in some other sops.
I find it very heavy for its size.
I am wondering if less weight contributes to a more nasal tone in a soprano?
Or, is it the player not the horn?
The issue about horn weight was worked over pretty good on that other site a while back. I contended that all saxophones of similar size (sops, altos, etc.) weigh about the same . . . at least close enough that I can't accurately tell which weighss more merely by hefting them.
I have seven sopranos (and have owned a lot more over time) and they all feel like they have different weights - the vintage horns feel lighter than the modern horns (with the added ribbing and hi-g keying, etc.). The problem is that I don't have a way to weigh them accurately. So, I stood on my digital bathroom scale with out each horn, then re-took to the scale holding each soprano.
3.5 pounds for each of them. My digital bathroom scale shows weight in .5 pound increments, so I'm assuming the thing will round off - meaning that the differences could be +/- 1/4 pound.
Now before you all bash me, rather than doing that, weigh your horns and report the results, either with my method OR by a more accurate method, if you can do that. I'll respect results, but right now I'm thinking that R&C soprano doesn't way any more or any less (within an undetectable spread by the human hand) than any other soprano. DAVE
I have seven sopranos (and have owned a lot more over time) and they all feel like they have different weights - the vintage horns feel lighter than the modern horns (with the added ribbing and hi-g keying, etc.). The problem is that I don't have a way to weigh them accurately. So, I stood on my digital bathroom scale with out each horn, then re-took to the scale holding each soprano.
3.5 pounds for each of them. My digital bathroom scale shows weight in .5 pound increments, so I'm assuming the thing will round off - meaning that the differences could be +/- 1/4 pound.
Now before you all bash me, rather than doing that, weigh your horns and report the results, either with my method OR by a more accurate method, if you can do that. I'll respect results, but right now I'm thinking that R&C soprano doesn't way any more or any less (within an undetectable spread by the human hand) than any other soprano. DAVE
That really depends. Some sopranos do weight considerably more than others. By considerably, I mean it can make a difference to how comfortable it is to play them for a long time, especially without a strap.
For example, an old Conn was MUCH lighter than a new Borgani I checked. Actually the Borgani was probably the heaviest soprano I remember, and I imediately noticed that when I picked it up. I don't remember the same feeling from any of the R&C sopranos, but I can't say I remember for sure.
Re saxphil's comment, no, the (lack of) weight of the soprano doesn't contribute to a more nasal tone. However a specific lighter soprano can sound more nasal than another heavier soprano, and vise versa.
BTW here is a photo of some of the R&C saxophones from the fair.
Nitail: In a word, prove it (not to read nasty or confrontational, just succinct). If your measurement was by lifting one then the other, I don't think that is proof.
I've done the same thing with all of my sopranos (hefting one then the other in my hand) and while I thought one may weigh more than another, it didn't prove out when I stood on my scale holding each one individually.
Yes, I realize that is a bit inaccurate, but I don't have a suitable scale to weigh each horn. The few-ounce variance that may exist by my method is insignificant, I believe.
The human mind could be influenced by the feel of each horn, too. The smoother to the touch, the ease of handling, etc. could make a person think subjectively rather than objectively.
All I'm asking for is for someone to actually weigh a variety of saxophones and report the results. THEN I may change my opinion. DAVE
I've done the same thing with all of my sopranos (hefting one then the other in my hand) and while I thought one may weigh more than another, it didn't prove out when I stood on my scale holding each one individually.
Yes, I realize that is a bit inaccurate, but I don't have a suitable scale to weigh each horn. The few-ounce variance that may exist by my method is insignificant, I believe.
The human mind could be influenced by the feel of each horn, too. The smoother to the touch, the ease of handling, etc. could make a person think subjectively rather than objectively.
All I'm asking for is for someone to actually weigh a variety of saxophones and report the results. THEN I may change my opinion. DAVE
I hear you Dave, but I think he has something going there. I've played a YSS-875 and it was ridiculously heavy compared to a Selmer III I had next to it. I'm normally a bari player, and don't play sop with a strap, but almost had to with the YSS. This difference was less than a pount, however most people are capable of noticing that difference.
Saxplayer: I'd believe it if the difference were a pound, but I doubt that it is (was?). When you think about it, the only variables would be 1) the thickness of the brass tube, and 2) the added keying and ribbing between vintage and modern sopranos. I would find it hard to believe that there would be any noticeable difference between a bag of parts from a Yamaha and a bag of parts from a Selmer (or any other brand). Rods, levers, pad cups, corks, springs and pads are all about the same.
Why would a YSS-875 weigh THAT much more than a Serie III? Or a Yanagisawa or a Borgani or a Rampone? They are all about the same length and diameter and they all have hi-G keying (well, I'm assuming the hi-G but most now have that).
Like I wrote before, if there was going to be a noticeable difference, it would be vintage vs. modern, and all of my sops, straight, curved, vintage and modern all weighed out using my method at 3.5 pounds. Given the rounding-off nature of a digital bathroom scale, I'm assuming about a 1/4 pound difference at the most.
I'm waiting for facts, not opinions. I really would like to be enlightened by real weights.
Just to add fuel to the fire, I WON'T get into "large bore" and "small bore" issues. DAVE
Why would a YSS-875 weigh THAT much more than a Serie III? Or a Yanagisawa or a Borgani or a Rampone? They are all about the same length and diameter and they all have hi-G keying (well, I'm assuming the hi-G but most now have that).
Like I wrote before, if there was going to be a noticeable difference, it would be vintage vs. modern, and all of my sops, straight, curved, vintage and modern all weighed out using my method at 3.5 pounds. Given the rounding-off nature of a digital bathroom scale, I'm assuming about a 1/4 pound difference at the most.
I'm waiting for facts, not opinions. I really would like to be enlightened by real weights.
Just to add fuel to the fire, I WON'T get into "large bore" and "small bore" issues. DAVE
Off to the scales it is then, I'll try to round up a few of my buddies sopranos and see if we can chuck them on the scales.
The annealed brass on some of the Yamaha's do make them heavier which may have been what I noticed. If you think about it though, even half a pound is a significant amount on a horn that light though. Sopranos don't exactly weight much to begin with.
The annealed brass on some of the Yamaha's do make them heavier which may have been what I noticed. If you think about it though, even half a pound is a significant amount on a horn that light though. Sopranos don't exactly weight much to begin with.
+1. I think it's more a question of how the horn is balanced. Is there more weight toward the "top end" (mouthpiece) or the "bottom end" (bell)? Something "improperly" balanced can feel an awful lot heavier than something that is.
An SX90 straight soprano is 3lbs or 1.4kg. Doing a brief Google search, I saw ranges of 1.36 to 1.5kg for a variety of sopranos. Hey, there's one company that has a listing of weights of horns with and without removable necks. Fixed neck is 1.3kg, removable is 1.36kg. (A YSS-875EX is 1.4kg, according to a cached page.)
Wondering: would a soprano with altissimo G weigh more than one with an altissimo F#? I think the weight of the key and formation of the tone hole would make a difference.
Dave, I'll try to explain.
I think one problem might be that it is not really clear what each person considers to be a significant difference. I think if scales show let's say for example a 10g difference, then yes, it's not a significant differnce.
But to be honest I don't think it's that important what the scales show. What's to me is important is how the instruments feel, and the Borgani felt much heavier than the Conn. What I mean by "much"? It just felt heavier when picking each of them, plus when playing them without a strap, the Borgani was a lot more tiring to play for a while. So my opinion is that, if the scales will later show, just for example, that it's a 1/4 pound difference, then I'd consider that difference significant.
Of course that can be partly from the weight balance of the instrument and not just the weight, but I still think how they feel is the significant thing.
But since you are interested in actual measuremements then no problem. I can't weight the Borgani because my friend who owns it is in USA for about six more months. But I still have the Conn. The best way I could weight it, with my scales which are suppsed to be accurate to the closest 0.1kg, it was 1.1kg. That's approx 2.45 pounds (could be a little more or less). I could also tell you that it's definitely the lightest soprano I've ever seen, and when I first held it I was suprised by how light it was.
So if some of your sopranos weight about 3.5 pounds, some possibly more, then I consider that a very significant weight difference from this old Conn. But that Borgani felt a little heavier than any other modern soprano I could remember holding. Nothing especailly accurate, but I just don't remember ever having that feeling of such a heavy soprano from any other insrument. This is why I noticed it. So my guess is it weights even a little more than other modern sopranos. Comapred with that Conn, that is a very significant difference. Which only show what was obvious when simply holding the saxophones and playing them.....
;-)
As to what causes the difference, I think it's a lot of little things. A high F# key, possibly a heavier material for body and keys, etc. Some of the keys and linkages of the Borgani looked especially "beefy", bigger and thicker than the Conn's, etc. which adds to the weight. Seems that all those things add up in the end to a significant difference.
I think one problem might be that it is not really clear what each person considers to be a significant difference. I think if scales show let's say for example a 10g difference, then yes, it's not a significant differnce.
But to be honest I don't think it's that important what the scales show. What's to me is important is how the instruments feel, and the Borgani felt much heavier than the Conn. What I mean by "much"? It just felt heavier when picking each of them, plus when playing them without a strap, the Borgani was a lot more tiring to play for a while. So my opinion is that, if the scales will later show, just for example, that it's a 1/4 pound difference, then I'd consider that difference significant.
Of course that can be partly from the weight balance of the instrument and not just the weight, but I still think how they feel is the significant thing.
But since you are interested in actual measuremements then no problem. I can't weight the Borgani because my friend who owns it is in USA for about six more months. But I still have the Conn. The best way I could weight it, with my scales which are suppsed to be accurate to the closest 0.1kg, it was 1.1kg. That's approx 2.45 pounds (could be a little more or less). I could also tell you that it's definitely the lightest soprano I've ever seen, and when I first held it I was suprised by how light it was.
So if some of your sopranos weight about 3.5 pounds, some possibly more, then I consider that a very significant weight difference from this old Conn. But that Borgani felt a little heavier than any other modern soprano I could remember holding. Nothing especailly accurate, but I just don't remember ever having that feeling of such a heavy soprano from any other insrument. This is why I noticed it. So my guess is it weights even a little more than other modern sopranos. Comapred with that Conn, that is a very significant difference. Which only show what was obvious when simply holding the saxophones and playing them.....
;-)As to what causes the difference, I think it's a lot of little things. A high F# key, possibly a heavier material for body and keys, etc. Some of the keys and linkages of the Borgani looked especially "beefy", bigger and thicker than the Conn's, etc. which adds to the weight. Seems that all those things add up in the end to a significant difference.
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I've played both curved and straight. I've posted this before, but I'll post it again:
My tone sucks on straight soprano, because I want to play it like a clarinet. On the traditional curved horns -- I'm talking vintage 1930 and earlier -- I sound a lot better, because the horn is really a mini alto sax. I don't know how I'd fare on modern curved horns because they're not really that curved: yes, they may have an "alto sax-like" body, but their necks are considerably straighter and vary considerably between models.
(I've actually played a couple of straight sopranos, both Bb and C, but the best condition one was an almost perfect early 1960's Mark VI, so I know it's me and not the horns -- even though I've heard that the VI isn't the best soprano out there.)
Do also note that if you're interested in the "gimmicky" sopranos from the 1920's, like the King Saxello, Lyon & Healy Perfect Curved, etc. they're all relatively bad players, from what I've heard. The exception being the Buescher Tipped Bell. Perhaps Groovekiller will grace us with more stories of that horn ....
My tone sucks on straight soprano, because I want to play it like a clarinet. On the traditional curved horns -- I'm talking vintage 1930 and earlier -- I sound a lot better, because the horn is really a mini alto sax. I don't know how I'd fare on modern curved horns because they're not really that curved: yes, they may have an "alto sax-like" body, but their necks are considerably straighter and vary considerably between models.
(I've actually played a couple of straight sopranos, both Bb and C, but the best condition one was an almost perfect early 1960's Mark VI, so I know it's me and not the horns -- even though I've heard that the VI isn't the best soprano out there.)
Do also note that if you're interested in the "gimmicky" sopranos from the 1920's, like the King Saxello, Lyon & Healy Perfect Curved, etc. they're all relatively bad players, from what I've heard. The exception being the Buescher Tipped Bell. Perhaps Groovekiller will grace us with more stories of that horn ....
Steen: I have not seen a curved Rampone but I've been in e-mail contact with a guy from SOTW that has one and loves it.
Having said that, for the money a Rampone would cost, you could buy a Yanagisawa and never need another soprano of any shape.
I've owned several curved sopranos in my time and still have a Yanagisawa SC902 (bronze). It is a fine soprano but I prefer straight models. I've also owned a King Saxello and the model Rampone calls a "saxello".
Among the curved sops I've owned was a Yanagisawa SC-901 (lacquered brass), a cheap Taiwanese-made WW&BW, and an old Conn from the 1920's.
In my opinion, there are two advantages to a curved sop - 1) easier for airline travel; 2) the player can hear himself better in loud environments. The myth of tonal differences is just that, but I know a noted professor of saxophone who vehemently disagrees with me. So be it.
Buy a Yanagisawa. DAVE
Having said that, for the money a Rampone would cost, you could buy a Yanagisawa and never need another soprano of any shape.
I've owned several curved sopranos in my time and still have a Yanagisawa SC902 (bronze). It is a fine soprano but I prefer straight models. I've also owned a King Saxello and the model Rampone calls a "saxello".
Among the curved sops I've owned was a Yanagisawa SC-901 (lacquered brass), a cheap Taiwanese-made WW&BW, and an old Conn from the 1920's.
In my opinion, there are two advantages to a curved sop - 1) easier for airline travel; 2) the player can hear himself better in loud environments. The myth of tonal differences is just that, but I know a noted professor of saxophone who vehemently disagrees with me. So be it.
Buy a Yanagisawa. DAVE
Steen: You are welcome. However, knowledge and opinions are two different things. Still, I have had some experience with them . . .
I suspect a Rampone curvy will cost you the same (or more) than a Yanagisawa. The Rampones don't come cheap. DAVE
I suspect a Rampone curvy will cost you the same (or more) than a Yanagisawa. The Rampones don't come cheap. DAVE