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rolled tone holes, micro tuners and naked lady engravings by Conn?

Hi to you all,

I believe it's being generally assumed that rolled tone holes, micro tuners and naked lady engravings are a Conn thing?
But how confident is this story actually? A lot of pre-war German saxophone brands that were operating in the Musikwinkel area,
started to built saxophones in the early 1920's. Oscar Adler's saxophone production started even earlier.
Pre-war German brands are also known for rolled tone holes, micro tuners and naked lady engravings.
 
Well the microtuner was introduced about 1919 by Conn, that's the earliest I've heard of it.
And just because some horns from certain periods are known for characteristics doesn't mean all are, I've seen a Pre-WW1 Kohlert on here without RTH: http://www.woodwindforum.com/forum/...bout-quot-V-Kohlert-s-Sohne-Graslitz-i-B-quot
As for the engraving-I don't really think anyone can keep track of the engraving on them, as most of these makers had more than 1 engraving they used.
 
Oooh. I like this thread. I'll try to post later.

Dolnet and Pierret also had microtuner necks. Just mentioning them so we can get some French manufacturers in there.
 
First, a general statement: pre-WWII Germanic horns all look more-or-less like Conns. Enough so that the rule-of-thumb I tell folks is, "Wanna know how much your horn is worth? Look at a Conn from approximately the same year. That's your value."

I seem to remember that either Oscar Adler or Kohlert made the first Germanic sax around 1901 or so and my opinion, at least on the Kohlerts, was that they looked very much like Couesnons. I'm also fairly sure I remember seeing a picture from a German museum that showed the horn that was used as the "blueprint" for all Germanic saxophones after WWI: Conn New Wonder, of course.

More later. Gotta run. @Helen.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I seem to have time issues today ...

The microtuner was on bunches of makes and models, just not bunches of US makes and models. I *think* that Conn was probably the first, considering the 1919 comment from TT, above, and that date sounds about right to me, as well. I don't know if the microtuner -- in the form of a tune-able barrel -- was used on clarinets before 1919. That could be something to look into, but it's a bit off track from this current discussion. As far as Conn is concerned, I'm only aware of them having microtuners on altos and on the "straight/alto" neck C melodies. European manufacturers also had them on Bb tenors. I can't recall ever seeing them on any make/model sopranos or higher or baritones and lower from any manufacturer. (If you find one, post pics!) Conn, however, had "microtuner" mouthpieces available for several pitches. (I know Groovekiller had a set. I'll dig up some pics and links at some point unless he drops by here before I find them.)

The presence or absence of a microtuner doesn't indicate much of anything regarding a horn's quality. Conn, themselves, had non-microtuner necks available for altos. As far as French/Germanic horns are concerned, I guess you could say that higher-priced finish horns had them.

I'll post more if/when I get some time!
 
sopraan in b 1.jpg
Here's a F.X. Hüller soprano with a micro tuner, it's got rolled tone holes and a naked lady engraving too.
Unfortunately this is the only picture i could find of this particular soprano.
 
I'm currently out of town, in many of you folks' neck of the woods actually. I'm dog, parrot, and koi sitting for friends while they deal with some other doggie health issues.

All this to say, I haven't had time give this thread any serious thought and research. Couple of points though:

1. Oscar Adler was the first saxophone manufacturer in the German-speaking part of Europe.
2. Pierret had micro tuners, in a big way.
3. The "naked lady" engraving on German horns of which you speak can be attributed to one engraving house, but they engraved for multiple manufacturers.

If I have time, I will spend some time this afternoon digging through my files and coming up with some concrete info for you all... ;)
 
I don't know if something has been adjusted, but it is showing up fine for me.

Oh, it's also showing up fine in your quote. ;)

Well it's showing up fine now for me too.
And that even has pearl palm keys, that's probably a really nice soprano.
 
3. The "naked lady" engraving on German horns of which you speak can be attributed to one engraving house, but they engraved for multiple manufacturers.
I think it's this thread. Check this out, too. Quoting:
According to a post on www.saxophonforum.de, the engraving of a nude female standing on a globe and holding something over her head was supposedly a signature engraving style from Fritz Reichel. The engraving itself is called, "Die Frauengestalt," which is translated to, simply, "The Female Figure."

Supposedly, Fritz Reichel did engraving for several companies in the Vogtland area.

According to posters on www.museum-markneukirchen.de, Fritz Reichel also created the logo for ALPIMA in 1945, which was a stringed instrument business. It's possible that this is the logo he created -- I've not been able to find newer examples of ALPIMA instruments.

One of the hits I got when searching Google was a genealogy page. The location does fit as do the above comments about ALPIMA. Therefore, it's probable that it's the same person and Fritz Reichel was born in 1882 and died in 1945.

My thanks to Helen from Bassic-Sax.info for her assistance in helping me get this far into the story.

Engraving is ... engraving. I think that Super DES horn (above links) is absolutely fantastic looking, but I have no idea how it plays.

As far as Conn was concerned, they had a selection of six or so "standard" engravings on their New Wonder horns. Then you got to a variety of gold plate finishes. Finish 00, Artist's Special, had elaborate engraving, but not unique engraving. You had a choice of about 20 styles. Finish 000, Virtuoso Deluxe, gave you unique engraving and the additional pearl keytouches. Conn also did occasionally do custom engraving for silver or silver and gold horns and also produced some silver and silver and gold horns with the additional pearl keytouches. Transitioning into the New Wonder "Transitional," there was a couple standard engraving types for brass and silver horns, but the engraving on gold plated horns was unique. After that, Conn had custom engraving on their gold plated 26/30M Connqueror models.

The Standard/Artist "M Series" horns had the "lady in a pentagon" engraving. It's not exactly a "naked lady" unless you stretch your imagination quite a bit.

I do remember seeing posts like, "Conn? The less clothing on the lady engraving, the better the horn." I don't necessarily think that's the case. I think it's more, "Oh. Gold plated horn that cost a lot. I'll take better care of it."

Engraving or the lack thereof doesn't necessarily mean anything. There are bunches of horns out there with not much more engraving than the manufacturer's mark. That includes a bunch of French-made horns.

More in a minute.
 
People will obviously ask for an example of a horn with a microtuner, full pearls, rolled tone holes, and elaborate engraving that's not a "great horn." Here ya go. I also famously disliked all Conn saxophones I ever tried before I tried a 30M. I'd much rather have a Yamaha 23 than any Conn New Wonder.

Rolled tone holes (RTH). Almost skipped that.

RTH were introduced around 1916 on Conn altos. I don't remember ever seeing that Conn claimed anything more than extended pad life for RTH. Julius Keilwerth claimed that their tone rings did impact the ... tone ... on their SX90R. I've never looked into the JK claims because I've never played an SX90 and SX90R of the same pitch set up the same. Hey, I really liked my JK-made Bundy baritone and that had straight tone holes.

I don't know when Germanic manufacturers started using RTH. I looked at some Kohlert Model 1928 horns and no RTH. Model 1929 has 'em. I don't have a serial number chart for Adler or other Germanic horns that are that early. I'm relatively sure that we didn't see French-manufactured horns with RTH until the 1930s (Couesnon, SML).

Again, the presence or absence of this feature doesn't mean much. The Selmer Mark VI did pretty OK with straight tone holes, after all.
 
I am the owner of the ''REM SUPER DES'' alto. It sounds just as good as it looks, a sound you won't find in any modern horn, intonation's good too but the ergonomics are not something to write home about.
 
I am the owner of this extraordinary F.X. Hüller too. It's not only a very fancy horn, intonation, ergonomics and sound are absolutely superb. it's one of the best pre-WWII saxophones i've ever played!
More info about FXH on my website: http://www.fxhuller.com
fxh.JPG
 
Please take a couple hundred more pics of each and post 'em. Those are nice looking horns.
 
Oooh. I like your website. I didn't go through all of it -- obviously; it's been like 10 minutes. You mention stencils. While I definitely accept that FX Huller made stencils for a lot of companies, those companies may have made their own horns, too. Hess is an easy one I can point out, as is Hammerschmidt.
 
I'll also [MENTION=156]Helen[/MENTION] again. For when she has a chance, of course.

I was looking at that contra, above, and also the bass on your website. I noticed something: the bass has the dual tone holes on the bow for the low C/D. I then said, "Didn't I see those on Hullers before?" I checked and I was right, but it's GH Huller, not FX. I kinda want to see if those are on the contra. If so, I wonder if both were produced by GH, not FX. I don't see any contras in the catalog on your website and the bass is mentioned, but not pictured. (F baritone, though!)

I know that Oscar Adler and Kohlert produced basses and contrabasses. I have a catalog with pics of the latter; Helen has confirmed the former was available. I've seen a WA Stowasser contra, but it was a really bad pic and I couldn't see the bow. But having even two manufacturers out there with contras is a bit much. Heck, the sax craze was big in the US and no American manufacturer made them.
 
Both bass and contra are not engraved but only have a yellow and red sticker which says ''World'', i don't know why? I do have copys of a FXH cataloque ( split bell key era ), this one shows all their models from soprano to contra bass.
Here the bari, bass and contra has single tone holes on the bow and the naked lady engravings. The bass even have two naked ladys, one sitting and holding a globe, one standing, holding up the ''World'' banner.
In this FXH cataloque the company claims they built there own contra! Unfortunately the owner of the original cataloque asked me not to share the content of the cataloque with others so you have to take my word for it.
A German collector told me at least three FXH contra's still exists.
 
Both bass and contra are not engraved but only have a yellow and red sticker which says ''World"
That's kinda interesting in and of itself. The Martin Committee "III" tenor I had did have a sticker with the patent info on it.

In this FXH cataloque the company claims they built there own contra!

Mmmm. I think it'd depend a bit as to what wording they used. As an example, you've got that page from the Hammerschmidt catalog regarding the Klingson horns. Those are stencils. Kinda why I wanted Helen to take a peek: she knows more about Germanic horns than me, can speak and read/write German, and has been around specifically basses more than me. I'd rather like there to have been another contrabass manufacturer out there. I'd like to find more examples, too.
 
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