Saxophone Bargains

[pete]

I touch on this idea every few years. Considering I'm waiting for a couple computers to finish thinking about stuff, I decided to go readdress the topic.

There are a lot of good saxophones on the market. The problem is finding an inexpensive horn that's not cheap -- in other words, you don't want to spend $500 for a horn that's going to fall apart tomorrow.

I'll take this in a couple of sections: vintage and modern. It'll be a bit .

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CAVEAT: Please read http://www.woodwindforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=806, first. The biggest thing to note is that all these prices are on eBay and eBay generally means, "Plan on spending $600 to overhaul the horn."

Further, the only "vintage" instruments I recommend for beginners are the Yamahas listed in this thread.

 

[pete]

"The French Sound"

Probably my all-around favorite vintage saxophone -- for the price -- is the Buffet SuperDynaction or the earlier Dynaction. The unfortunate thing is that they have climbed in price and now sell in the $1200+ range for an alto. That's still not bad, but it's getting to be expensive.

Still, that's not bad for a horn that plays fairly equivalently to a Selmer Mark VI.

The GOOD thing about these horns, though, is that several companies made stencils of these horns. A couple of the ones I can think of, off the top of my head are the Olds Opera and the Malerne Master. If you can find one of these, you're going to get a pretty cheap horn.

Interestingly, Buffet also made their own stencil: the Evette-Schaeffer Master. Actually, the entire E&S "Master" series of instruments was based on professional Buffets and sold at a fraction of cost. Something good to be said for that!

* My Dynaction Alto Review.
* Stephen Howard SDA Review.
* saxpics.com: Dynaction
* saxpics.com: SuperDynaction (SDA)

 

[pete]

"The French Sound, Part II"

I have to toot my own horn. Literally.

I recently bought a baritone sax from Ed, here. It's a Beaugnier-made Vito baritone. It has an exquisite tone. And these horns are inexpensive. If you can find them. And Beaugnier made DOZENS, if not hundreds of stencils.

Brief summary: E. A. Beaugnier was either a company that was purchased by Leblanc or a saxophone-only company that Leblanc farmed out their high-end pro saxophone work to. Sometimes this produced incredibly complex, overwrought horns, but almost all had very good tone and excellent intonation.

Caveat: you want to get a horn that looks as modern as possible (right hand bell keys, front altissimo F, etc.). The reason for this is because there are no "real" Beaugnier serial number charts. Make sure the horn says "Made in France", too. Oh. Be wary of Noblet-branded horns sold as Beaugniers. I really don't think they're "made" by Beaugnier.

Price range: How's about $500 or so for a modern-ish alto? Maybe $1000 for a tenor?

See: http://www.doctorsax.biz/beaugnier_ser_nos.htm and http://www.doctorsax.biz/vito_ser_nos.htm

 

[pete]

"The French Sound, Part III"

The last French make I'll mention in the vintage category is the Couesnon Monopole. This isn't a horn that I've had the opportunity to play (I owned a 1900-ish Couesnon baritone), but it is a make that I have heard good things about. And they're cheap.

Let's see. You've got rolled tone holes, big bell, heavy construction and a French tone. It's kinda SML-esque, without the extra price.

* Caveat: the newer the better. The Monopole was made for a long time and you want one that looks like the pictures in the review.

* Price Range: $700 or so for an alto, $1200 or so for a tenor.

* saxpics.com page.
* Stephen Jackson Tenor Review.
* Stephen Jackson Alto Review.

 

[pete]

"Da Germans, Part I"

There are a couple ways of looking at German horns. Primarily, it's in terms of, "What kind of Conn do you like?"

If you're seriously pining away for a Conn New Wonder or Transitional, the horn to get is probably going to be a Kohlert "VKS" model -- "stenciled" as an Amati A880.

Personally, I think these horns are too difficult to find and aren't as good as something newer. If I want a Conn-esque horn, I'm gonna go for something that plays more like a 6/10M Standard than a New Wonder. In the Kohlert world, that means a Model 55, 57, 58 or 59, with preference given to the 57.

* Price Range: Under $500 for an alto, under $1000 for a tenor.

 

[pete]

"Da Germans, Part II"

If you REALLY want a good horn that's kinda-sorta Conn, but has better intonation, you want a Keilwerth. They're surprisingly inexpensive and there are a lot of stencils -- and others.

Keilwerth sold saxophone bodies to a variety of companies that would affix their own keywork. Interesting marketing idea, but it worked for decades. The only problem with this, as far as the buyer is concerned, is trying to find out if it's "really" a Keilwerth or not. To not belabor the point, just make sure the horn is stamped, "Made in Germany" and, in most cases, it should have the "JGK: The Best in the World" trademark stamp (remember: this is general).

The most fun Keilwerth stencils, because of the name and price, would be the H&A Selmer Bundy and Bundy Specials from the 1950s. They're all stamped "Made in Germany". Some have "Made by Keilwerth for H&A Selmer" on them ... and they're cheap. Like, under $600 for an alto "cheap" (one recently sold on eBay for $200). And they're stencils of professional models.

* Caveat 1: Probably the best models are post s/n 21xxx. And all Keilwerths and stencils have Keilwerth serial numbers. Keilwerth BODIED horns, like the Dorfler & Jurka, have different serials.

* Caveat 2: There is mass confusion about the various models of Keilwerth. You've got King, New King, Toneking, EX, Exklusive, Special, etc., etc. Don't worry about this, too much. The ones to worry about are the NEW ST/EX horns. FWIW, a Toneking Exklusive with rolled tone holes, altissimo F# and additional pearl inlay is the top model.

* Saxpics.com Article

 

[pete]

"Japanese Horns"

The BEST possible value out there for a pro horn is the Yamaha YAS-61 and YTS-61. They've got great tone. They're cheap ($1300 and under for an alto). Heck, even some YAS-62's are selling for under $1500 on eBay. That's a killer price. Stop reading this post and buy one.

OK, $1300 is still expensive. How 'bout a horn that plays almost as good as the 61/62, but for less than half the price? I've got your models: the YAS-52 or YAS-32. Same horn, sold in different markets. Yes, they're sold as intermediate models, but it's 1/2 the price of the 61/62 (they're averaging under $600 on eBay).

The "scoop" on the 52/32 compared to the 62 is that the body's bore is identical. The bell and neck are different and the kind of brass used is different. This translates to, "Big deal. I used one in college and in my professional life."

You seriously will not find a better horn for a better price. They're getting more difficult to find on eBay, tho.

Yamaha Reviews.

 

[pete]

"Modern Horns"

The question, "Is there a modern professional saxophone out there for less than $1000?" comes to mind. And echoes back with an, "Are you insane?"

The main reason to want to buy an insanely modern saxophone (one that was designed in the last few years) is because it was designed on computer and the design, as such, shouldn't have as many intonation problems as, say, a 1920 Conn New Wonder. However, you're going to pay a lot, even over really decent, non-computer-designed horns.

Hey, I really like my wife's Selmer USA Omega from 1981. Plays like a compromise between the Mark VI, Mark VII and Super 80. It sells for under $1800, usually. I also bet that the intonation I have on this horn is pretty darn close to anything you can get on a Selmer Flamingo.

So, let's look at some prices for modern pro altos:

* Yanagisawa A901: $1895
* Cannonball: $2100 (pricing is difficult to find on these and ranges up to $3500)
* P. Mauriat Vintage 66: $2100 (their cheapest pro model)
* Jupiter 2089: $2149
* Yamaha YAS-62 II: $2243 (i.e. their cheapest pro model)
* Rampone & Cazzani R1: $3178
* Keilwerth SX-90R: $3747
* Selmer S80 Serie III: $4100
* Borgani Gold (it's the cheapest one, oddly): $4500

... all checked on the internet, today.

That's some good sticker shock, right there. No, I'm not listing some of the non-name-brand "pro" horns that are "pro" in name only. The above are horns that people actually consider as moderately professional models. With possibly some exceptions .

The point? Some of these (quasi) vintage horns I mentioned could be exactly what you need or want and could be repaired to better-than-new condition for less than the price of a new Yanagisawa.

Remember: eBay can be your friend. You just have to be careful.

 

[Merlin]

My vote for one of the best American made cheapies is the Selmer Signet with the S brace between the body and bell. I played one at a store in Toronto that was going for $450, and I still regret not snapping it up.

 

[pete]

It's not a bad choice, Merlin, but I think it's a bit outclassed by some of the other horns I mention. (You're talking about the Buescher-made model, IIRC, right?)

I, of course, was not comprehensive: there are some other really good, cheap horns out there. It's just that the ones I mentioned are consistently mentioned as good instruments from both a playing and repair perspective. Hey, I really wanted to mention, say, Dolnet, but I've talked too too many techs that hate working on 'em.

I'll talk about a repair scenario tomorrow or so. I think that I've gotten a nice start, tho .

 

[Steve]

Merlin,
I appreciate your appreciation. I also wanted to get an S brace (Buescher) Selmer signet. especially the early ones with the very ornate engraving. very pretty .. err.. nice sounding horns.

The Yamaha 61 and early 62s are my favorite Yamahas. Don't know whether it's due to the horn itself or that those were the instruments around when I was in high school

Bueagnier has always been high on my list for that french sound.

but luckily i've stuck with Selmer. great ergos .. or better ergos for me and they tend to hold their value fairly well

 

[pete]

Another Way of Looking at It

If you can buy a horn that's in intact -- or reasonably intact -- for practically nothing that is worth a lot of cash in "perfect" shape after repair, that may be the way to go, too.

The "thought experiment" I've done before was with a Buescher Big B alto I once had that was in sad shape. It needed a full overhaul and replating, but would have been better than new, afterwards. The replating and overhaul would have been approximately $1500. The horn, itself, cost $75. The horn would be worth, after all repairs, close to $2000 and possibly play as good as or better than any other pro horn on the market.

The other examples I've done with Mark VIs: a playable VI is really not a difficult thing. You could start with a low A horn that has no neck (I've seen these, on occasion, on eBay for under $1500), buy a 3rd party neck for $300 to $700 and then get a full overhaul and replate for about $2000. Or forget the replate and just have the horn stripped and overhauled for $800 or so. It might not be as nice looking as that shiny new horn, but it will probably play as nice -- and that's what you want.

 

[Merlin]

Pete, I was curious about the VKS models you mentioned.

I'm even more curious after looking at this.

That's the wildest RH key stack I've ever seen.

 

[pete]

Not especially. A simular lower-stack style was also employed on the early Buffet-Powell, minus the rather odd low C/Eb.

The Kohlert horns were the first German saxophone makes and then Julius Keilwerth apprenticed with them. That makes it difficult to impossible to separate early Keilwerths and post-WWI/pre-WWII Kohlerts. Heck, the bell-to-body brace is also the same on a lot of those horns, so I generally go by the shape of the G# key to tell them apart -- and the serial number.

However, you've gotta note that Kohlert is essentially building on the Conn designs (heck, Kohlert even made an "F Mezzo Soprano") and it's arguable that Keilwerth is building on the Kohlert design -- but Kohlert did design the Selmer Pennsylvania Specials: I verified this through serial number work about a year ago.

The "VKS Model", which that baritone is a beautiful example of, is probably the pinnacle of Kohlert design. Post WWII, the company was reformed: new designs, new serial number chart, new everything.

http://saxpics.com/kohlert -- everything else you'll find on the web regarding them is in German.

 

[Gandalfe]

Oh crap, more cool stuff to locate and buy.

 

[pete]

I aim to please .

 

[Ed]

I've always thought that the various earlier JK stencils were good buys. My only complaint with some of the horns is that the intonation can be a little less spot on than say a Buescher. I have a Kohlert "The Kohlert" that I rather like but I'm going to sell since I still have no need for four tenors. The other great value in my mind is the Yanagisawa 8xx series of horns. As pointed out by Pete - you can't go wrong with the early Yamaha 62's although that secret is out of the bag and these horns have increased a fair bit in price over the last few years.

 

[pete]

I specifically didn't mention the Yanagisawas because of the difficulties in categorizing them.

For instance, in high school, I played one of three different (and at different times) Yani-made Vito baritones. All three looked 99% like a Mark VI -- seriously -- but all played like junk. I've heard the same from other folks, too. But what model Yani is that? If you get out the model book, you'll have some difficulty trying to determine what it was: B6? VSP? 880? I dunno. The serial number also might not fit.

So, yes, it's possible that you'll find an 880 out there for cheap, but don't necessarily go hunting for old Vitos in hopes you'll find one. Hey, there's a total of ONE Yani 880 on eBay, right now. A silver-plated tenor for $2,400. That's not a good price.

Back to the "early" horns, I really think its a bit of a disservice to tell someone to buy a split-key horn, so I tend to stay away from that. However, the main reason I mention a speicfic range of JK horns is because these were the ones that were the most plentiful and, because of the lucite keyguard, are arguably collectible in their own right.