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Some help with C-Melody repair please?

Hello. I am new to woodwinds, but have always wanted to play the sax, and the C-Melody sax has recently facinated me. I have just won two auctions on eBay for fixer Conn and Conn stencil C-Mels:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221048198085?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

and a Bruno Royal Artist

http://www.ebay.com/itm/190691619598?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

The latter, I am thinking of repadding myself. It's cheap enough to do that without too much worry. Any resources for parts and info would be appreciated.

I am fairly handy at repairing guitars, but this will be my first attempt with woodwinds. I also have experience in fabricating and auto repair, so I probably have the skills to do it, with the proper equipment and information.

So far my best resource is http://musicmedic.com/info/articles.html

If you have other resources, I would love your input and advice

TIA

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You can also do a Google for Allied Music Supply.

General notes on sax repair:
* You will put a needle spring through a finger. Make sure your tetanus shots are up to date.
* If you're going to hand polish your horn, make sure you use a non-abrasive, non-tarnishing polish designed for the appropriate plating (your C melody looks like silver plate) and be extremely gentle. Note that you've got gold wash in the bell. Don't use silver polish on that.

You'll have other actual repair folks comment on the rest. Do note that just a repad isn't going to fix the horn. You have to make sure that the pads seal properly, you've got the corks and felts in the right places and you want to make sure that all the keys work and don't have excessive play.

==============

I see that you have all of $150 in both of the horns. Arguably, the Bruno would be the better of the two, especially as I don't see as much damage to the top 1/4 or so of the horn. Both are essentially the same horns and are pretty close in age. You could probably use donor parts from one to the other, if you need to.
 
You can also do a Google for Allied Music Supply.

General notes on sax repair:
* You will put a needle spring through a finger. Make sure your tetanus shots are up to date.
* If you're going to hand polish your horn, make sure you use a non-abrasive, non-tarnishing polish designed for the appropriate plating (your C melody looks like silver plate) and be extremely gentle. Note that you've got gold wash in the bell. Don't use silver polish on that.

You'll have other actual repair folks comment on the rest. Do note that just a repad isn't going to fix the horn. You have to make sure that the pads seal properly, you've got the corks and felts in the right places and you want to make sure that all the keys work and don't have excessive play.

==============

I see that you have all of $150 in both of the horns. Arguably, the Bruno would be the better of the two, especially as I don't see as much damage to the top 1/4 or so of the horn. Both are essentially the same horns and are pretty close in age. You could probably use donor parts from one to the other, if you need to.
Quoted for impact.
 
* You will put a needle spring through a finger. Make sure your tetanus shots are up to date.

I ALWAYS polish/buff in one direction with the needle - not against it, otherwise you will get the needle through your finger. The very few times I did not listen to my own advice I did get a needle through the finger.

Sure, it takes longer to polish/buff in one direction. But think of all the time wasted cleaning up the blood, stopping the blood leak, and searching out bandaids and pain cream and then not being able to fully use that finger again for a while.

I also use buffing/cloth strips which allow you to keep your hands far away from those pesky needles for most of the polishing/buffing operation.

Also, I suggest if you plan on repadding the instrument yourself first then do the first several one pad at a time.

BUY a leak light and check each new pad installed for a leak.

Start out replacing the neck pad. You can then check if you do a good job by blocking the ends and lightly blowing (or sucking) into it. It should not allow a leak.

then one by one replace a standalone pad. Such as one of the palm keys, the side F# or Bb, high E, high F#, or any other key NOT dependent upon another key or mechanism. Here you are practicing your ability to level a pad (which is a discussion onto it's own thread).

Then do the bell keys. and you have to work well to get the table keys flat with each other.

Then the lower stack.

Then upper stack which is usually the most convoluted in mechanical dependency.


you will also have to determine what kind of pads you with to use.
and more important what type of adhesive to use.
Some times as you try to do things right you start spending money on more specific tools. After a short time you may end up spending more to try and do it correctly than getting it done by a professional in the first place.
 
Wow that's a tall order. As a band teacher who has done amateur repairs on band instruments for 32 years and a retired band teacher who is in his 12th year of professional repair my advice to people wanting to try their hand at repair is always the same. Get a used Yamaha YAS-23 or YTS-23 for your first attempt at re-padding a saxophone. They are far more accessible to someone who is a novice at repair which will enhance the odds at having a favorable outcome.

Old vintage saxes typically present a myriad of problems that can be challenging even for experienced repair techs. These include, but are not limited to:

-Frozen rods
-Frozen pivot screws
-Rusted springs
-Bent keys and hinge tubes
-Bent rods
-Bent bodies
-Bent posts
-Poorly fitting keys
-Wavy tone holes
-Difficult to assemble stack keys
-Difficult to adjust springs going into holes in the keys

Newer saxes that have been mistreated can have many of the same problems, but they are more common on saxes that are 80 to 100 years old. That said, if I haven't scared you off with my warning---I would be happy to help in any way that I can. A good starting point is to begin with the right tools and supplies the attachment below is a list that I made up for band teachers. The items highlighted apply specifically to sax repair. Good luck.
 
Difficult yes, impossible no.

My very first saxophone that I bought for myself to repad was a 1917ish Conn stencil Royal Artist - or something like that. Loved that horn as the table keys were Martin like.

now i have to go back and check the pics to see exactly what it was.

but an interesting thread bringing back memories.

Repairing strings brings forth some qualities needed. But truthfully general refurbishment is much more difficult on a woodwind than a brass or string instrument. I also work on french horns, trumpets and used to be a string player too. So I can relate.
 
Thanks for the replies, lot's of help here! Well aware that the woodwind is going to be quite a challenge. But I have as previous experiences(some good, some not so good) rebuilding carburators, engines, transmissions, antique cameras, antique airbrushes and anything else I can get my hands on. The challenge sounds fun, although a bit daunting. Certainly will keep my mind and hands busy for a while.

jbtsax-thanks much for the fair warning, and your expertice! Much appreciated. That checklist will be much help.
 
I started out the way you did. Lots of good advice here/above. I'd definitely do one sax at a time. You'll find you make so many mistakes, the second's a lot better, and often the mistakes don't show up until later, so doing 2 at once means duplicating mistakes before you've learnt from the first one. And with Conns look out for those locking screws.

Before you strip the sax, make sure you fully understand the way the keys interact, epecially as far as adjustment. And measure the key heights. They affect how it blows and intonation. Take a look at how deep the pads are in the cups.

Good online resources: cybersax.com (but you'll have to dig). musicmedic (already mentioned). http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/

Stephen Howard's Haynes Saxophone Manual is an excellent reference book.

Parts/tools from musicmedic and ferrees tools (as well as allied).
 
People who haven't seen the movie won't get the joke. Rent the movie. It's almost universally considered one of the top 10 funniest ever, if not #1.

Anyhow ...

A trick from the computer world is to either take a large picture of the horn and tape the part to the picture as you remove it or get an egg carton and segregate the screws.

There's a tool for popping out springs, if you need to. I've never used one, but that might be something to think about, depending on the current key action.
 
Another trick that has served me well is to draw a crude diagram of the horn on a 1 x 6 board (with a Sharpie style marker), and then drill holes into which you spike the various springs, rods and screws. As long as you don't knock the board off of the bench, you're in like Flynn...
 
...let us know about the first needle spring injury...

Will do.

Actually, I have some masking tape and I plan to label every part, and indicate it's origin. Having taken apart several cars and a couple motorcycles over the last 20+ years, I have gotten the hang of organizing things to where I don't generally misplace things. It's always the "Extra" parts that keep me wondering. :???: lol

I think the fine tuning will be the bigger challenge as more experience with the instrument is required than I have. I have a well trusted shop near me that has literally been in this area for as long as the area has been populated. If I need to, I can bring the sax to them. http://baxternorthup.tumblr.com/ That is also where I will be taking lessons, first for clarinet, then sax.
 
I can say that playing sax after playing clarinet for a few years makes for a really easy transition. If you can take up flute, too -- which I've never been able to do -- you'll be all ready for a jazz band.
 
I can say that playing sax after playing clarinet for a few years makes for a really easy transition. If you can take up flute, too -- which I've never been able to do -- you'll be all ready for a jazz band.

Never been a fan of the flute, however I do listen to Jethro Tull a bit. Just not my thing. I may take sax lessons after a few weeks of clarinet. That might work better for me. That shop has many good teachers, and if they advise otherwise based on my ability(or more likely lack there of) I'll hold off. Is there a specific reason why it is not a good idea to study both at once?
 
You can study both at once. At first you will find so much similarities amongst fingerings, then after a short while you'll find so much dissimilarities among fingerings !! The embouchures are different too when you get right down to it.

You could study both at the same time but one has to really work on differentiating both instruments. It is common practice now to teach new, young students clarinet first and then switch them to sax. So I actually recommend learning the clarinet first and when the fingerings get entrenched then later picking up sax.

You may be best served finding a teacher that is very adept at both sax and clarinet, and speak to them some more as each student is different and your drive to learn may be good enough to take on both at the same time.
 
The Bruno came in yesterday

Finally got on of my horns in. Just as the pictures showed, all there but a bit rough. First problem is that it is missing one of the octave key guides. Seems to function without it, but something I'll deffinately want to fix later.

First most obvious problem was that the neck was too loose. Wouldn't tighten at all. I used the round end of an apropriatly sized ball peen hammer to reform the connector on the neck. Fits like a nice tight glove into the body now.

Still no pin springs through my fingers yet, though they are a bit scary looking. Will inform when otherwise. lol

Most of the pads are gone, and the replacements haven't gotten here yet. But first things first. A few broken flat springs need replacement. The PO had bent some of the keys to overlap each other to compansate for the broken springs?(strange). Anyway, got most of the keywork as straight as possible, without new springs and the pads installed. I was hoping I could just clean, repad and adjust. Pretty sure it needs to be stripped down completely.

Planning on replacing all springs and screws. Do the rods necessarilly need to be replaced? They seem in decent shape, from what I can tell. I used some Dr. Ducks Ax wax to clean and lube the mechanism, worked a charm. No more sticky keys, but a few are "lofty" due to weak/maladjusted springs.

Once again, thanks for your help and guidance. Much appreciated.
 
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