Collecting the Saxophone

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
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I was responding to an e-mail from Helen (our sax CE) regarding a vintage horn and I offhandedly mentioned that it'd be fun to do a thread or blog post on what saxophones a collector should have. This is that thread. Please feel free to add some instruments and discuss why the instrument(s) should be included. Give a submission a "Thanks" or two and I'll add the horn in that thread to this first post. I'll probably get around to adding pics, sometime, too.

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to show any make/model or collection any disrespect. I'm also not saying that any particular horn on this list is the best horn for you or is even a good horn. I'm essentially treating this as if I were collecting saxophones the same as collecting stamps and I had unlimited funds.

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1. An Adolphe (Antoine-Joseph) Sax instrument from the 19th century.
It almost goes without saying that you should have a horn from the inventor, himself. As a step down, you could get a pre-1928 horn from Adolphe-Edouard Sax, the inventor's son. As a step down from that, you could get a Selmer-made Adolphe Sax horn. As a step down from that, you could try to get a pre-1890 Evette-Schaeffer, as they were licensed by Adolphe Sax and had a very similar design to Sax's instrument.

2. One horn of each pitch.

Let's see if I can name them all: Bb sopranissimo, Eb sopranino, Bb&C sopranos, G mezzo-soprano, Eb&F altos, Bb&C tenors, Eb baritone, Bb&C bass, Eb subcontrabass and Bb, C and Eb contrabass. (I'll talk about the A soprano in a bit :).) For bonus points, you could also try to get one in each style, like a straight alto and regular (curved) alto.

3. A Selmer Mark VI alto or tenor.
Regardless of personal opinion, the Mark VI is a) regarded by a lot of folks to be the "Stradivarius" of saxophones and b) one of the insanely few make/models that has not only maintained, but increased in value. It's also probably the one make/model that most sax players can mention off the top of their heads.

4. Firsts.
There are a lot of different kinds of firsts. One that I can think of, off the top of my head, would be the first make/model of saxophone produced in a country. For instance, a Conn "Worcester" (first US make/model) or a Kohlert (or Adler) from around 1890 to 1904 (the first German-made horns). There are also first models made by a company, like the Selmer Modele 22, etc.

5. A slide sax.
Not only because they're visually interesting and have an interesting sound, but because they're part of the 1920's sax craze and all but disappeared in 10 years.

6. A plastic sax.

In my opinion, it'd be the Grafton Acrylic Alto, as that horn has an association with Charlie Parker and because it is one of those Firsts (i.e. first sax that was plastic). However, I do think a Vibratosax could be in this discussion.

7. A Conn New Wonder with Virtuoso Deluxe finish.
These are the horns Conn produced that had all the additional pearl keytouches, triple gold plate and custom engraving. If there was any horn that typified the 1920s sax craze AND some of the American excesses of that decade, this is it.

8. An interesting 1920s soprano.
You've got several choices: a King Saxello, a Buescher Tipped-Bell, a Holton/Couturier semi-curved, etc.

9. At least one horn from a manufacturer that is no longer in business in any way, shape or form.

That's actually harder than you might think. As an example, the nameplates of most of the US manufactures from the 1920s are still around. A lot of Germanic and Italian makes were just consolidated and those names are still around. You might have to go French. Which reminds me ...

10. One horn from each country that made saxophones. At the very least, US, France, Italy, Japan and Germany.
It'd also be kinda kewl if your selection typified the "US sound" (that'd be a Conn), etc. Bonus for Russian, Brazilian, Belgian and Romanian makes.

11. A decent high-pitch saxophone.
At the very least, so you can demonstrate an A=440hz horn vs. an A=457hz horn. Oddly, finding a good high-pitch horn is getting more challenging.

12. Something awesomely rare or one-of-a-kind.
I mentioned that A soprano, which was on GetASax.com awhile ago. You've also got things like prototypes (the King Super 21, for instance) and horns made in such small quantities, people don't know that they exist (e.g. curved C soprano and C bass). There are also really unique designs, like the Georgeophone or the Selmer Padless.

13. A low A alto.

Most folks have heard of the Mark VI low A alto. How many folks know about the Couesnon Monopole low A alto?

14. The ultimate pro horns from each manufacturer.
You could truncate it to something like, "The ultimate pro horns from each US manufacturer" (Conn Connqueror and Connstellation, Buescher 400 and Aristocrat, King Super 20, Martin Magna and whatever Holton, Couturier and York).

15. At least one interesting sax-fingered relative.

A Sax-Oboe, Sarrusophone, Rothophone, etc.

16. One horn from each model of a particular manufacturer.
Gotta catch collect them all!

17. (In)famous Student Horns
You've have to throw a Bundy and a Yamaha 21/23/25 in there.
 
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A mint quartet (S,A,T,B) of pro models with close serial numbers from the same manufacturer - with original mouthpieces and ligatures/caps. Extra points for original mint condition cases.
 
1. An Eppelsheim horn of any kind.
Benedikt has revolutionized the way we think about saxophones, and has done more for saxophone design, than we have seen in nearly 100 years.

2. An original contrabass.
Yeah, I hear you folks saying it already: Good luck with that.
With less than 20 original contras still in existance, the chances of finding one are slimmer than winning Powerball. (Which is likely what you'd have to win to buy one.) :emoji_relaxed:

3. One of J' Elle Stainer's big monster horns.

Perhaps the subcontrabass, or the compact, subcontrabass (if you're too short, and are afraid of heights) :wink: Why a J'Elle Stainer monster horn? Because let's face it, to a true sax collector, size does matter. :D

I'll add a few more later (and some pics), but I gotta' run now.
 
I'd definitely put an original contrabass on the short list of "rare and valuable" (my #12). However, there are now several companies that make 'em again. According to practically everything I've read, the modern contras are superior to the vintage ones, especially from a design and intonation standpoint. I don't remember if Groovekiller liked playing the Tubax more than the contrabass offering from Eppelsheim, but I do remember that I could definitely hear a difference in terms of tone quality between the horns: the contra is much fuller than the Tubax. I'd assume that this is mostly because of the much narrower bore that the Tubax has.

Having an Eppelsheim-made horn in the collection would definitely be something to consider, tho. I can agree with that. How 'bout:

You should have one of the horns with a bold, unusual design:

* Leblanc Le Rationnel, Semi-Rationnel or Leblanc System (this would be my #1 pic, especially the original Le Rationnel)
* Buffet-Powell
* EO Sylvester
* Jim Schmidt
* J'Elle Stainer/Lopes
* Eppelsheim (particularly the Soprillo, bass or Tubax)
* Buffet S1
* Evette-Schaeffer Apogee
* Selmer Modele 28
(add more if you can think of 'em!)
 
1. Something to add to the mix is a custom horn. Something like the straight baritones made out of the 2 Amatis (one a low A & the other a low Bb), or a low G (or even lower) bass, customized by Lopes, or some other company specializing in customizations.

2. Then of course there's the Windmaster II by Lopes. A bass sax keyed from low G to high F. In other words, an extended range bass sax built like this right from the start.

3. And how could this not be on the list yet? A minty, bass saxophone. Preferably in gold plate. Either Conn or Buescher will do. Preferably not a stencil horn.

Psst Pete: We need a category for bass, as well as for contra & above. I wouldn't lump them together with unusual designs necessarily.

BTW, Benedikt's low A contra is supposed to blow Orsi's right out of the water. When it comes to contra makers, there are only 3 to my knowledge (J'Elle Stainer being the 3rd). I can't remember now if I've already written about it on my site or not, but Benedikt sent me an interesting email that I can use for his pages on my site. In it he talks about why the original contras didn't work very well, and what he had to change in order to have it actually work the way that it does. He also talks about the differences between his contra & the Orsi.
 
I have been trying to collect one of each Selmer model from Modele 22 to Mark VI.

To that end I currently own:

Modele 22 (I actually have 2)
SSS 'Cigar Cutter'
Balanced Action
Dorsey
Mark VI

I still need:

Modele 26
Modele 28
Large Bore
Radio Improved
Super (Balanced) Action

One of these days I'll get back to snooping around - I'm halfway there !!!
 
You're missing a LOT of Selmers, dude! No Mark VII, none of the Super 80 Serie, no Reference horns! Not to mention the Bird series and the new "Jubilee" finish!

:p

Something to mention about the Selmers is that the Mark VI is the 6th "series" of sax from Selmer:

* Modele 22 series (which included the Serie 22, Modele 1922 and Modele 22 -- and the low B Serie 22s)
* Modele 26 series (which included the Modele 28 & New Largebore)
* Selmer Super Series (which included the "Cigar Cutter," Supers without the "Cigar Cutter" octave mechanism, Radio Improved and Jimmy Dorsey models)
* Balanced Action
* Super Action

The Jimmy Dorsey is definitely the least common of all the above. I think I've seen not more than 6. Hats off to you for having one.

Oh. This would also be a Selmer (Paris) collection. There are the Selmer USA horns, too!
 
1. Something to add to the mix is a custom horn.
Good point. I hadn't mentioned that. I'd submit that horns that aren't necessarily keywork/bore modified could be mentioned, like the Toptone-fitted horns. Although, I've gotta mention that I'm thinking about the one-handed horns that are out there, too.

3. And how could this not be on the list yet? A minty, bass saxophone. Preferably in gold plate. Either Conn or Buescher will do. Preferably not a stencil horn.
#2 in my list :p.

However, if you do want to get a little more granular on that, you could collect, say, the TWO American-made basses, a Conn and a Buescher. So more folks to be able to follow my line of reasoning, let me explain: Conn and Buescher made bass saxophones for all the other US brands that wanted a bass. There is the possibility of a *couple* of horns made by another company -- Martin and Holton are the ones I generally hear about -- but those would be in low enough quantity to be considered "prototype." (As a matter of fact, I checked through my archives and I can't even find a bass stenciled "HN White" or "King." Have you seen any, Helen?) Of course, both the Buescher and Conn basses did have a major neck/top crook change at different points in their lives, too.

The same idea could be, "Collect all the US-made sopraninos!" I'm fairly sure that only Conn and Buescher made any. Considering HN White did produce a prototype curved Bb sopranissimo, I'd think it'd be possible that they had one as a prototype, too.

Collecting all the curved and/or straight and/or odd-shaped US-made Bb sopranos would be kewl.

Then of course there's the Windmaster II by Lopes. A bass sax keyed from low G to high F. In other words, an extended range bass sax built like this right from the start.
Hmm. A couple things.

While I think the idea of the extended range on a Bb bass would be kinda interesting, I think that, if I were in the market for a bass, I'd get an Eppelsheim. I base (punny!) this on the good reviews I've seen from other folks that play bass. I'd probably ask Mr. E if he could do the low G for me, if I really wanted it.

On a somewhat different tack, you could collect all the low A baritones produced in the US. You'd have a Conn 11M and ... a Selmer USA/Signet. In other words, back to Conn and Buescher! (I'm also fairly sure that both the Conn and Selmer USA had straight bell extensions, not conical.)

BTW, Benedikt's low A contra is supposed to blow Orsi's right out of the water. When it comes to contra makers, there are only 3 to my knowledge (J'Elle Stainer being the 3rd). I can't remember now if I've already written about it on my site or not, but Benedikt sent me an interesting email that I can use for his pages on my site. In it he talks about why the original contras didn't work very well, and what he had to change in order to have it actually work the way that it does. He also talks about the differences between his contra & the Orsi.
Well, the original contras were kinda cobbled together, from what I understand. I'm also fairly sure that each was a complete custom job and there wasn't any standardized tooling, like they'd have for an alto or something. I do know that the average height of older contras is a bit more than the new ones.

FWIW, I don't know if anyone's done a Orsi contra vs. either -- or, preferably, both -- a Tubax or the Eppelsheim contra and a 1920s vintage Evette-Schaeffer (probably the most "common" contrabass). I'd also like to hear a competition between the Bb subcontra Tubax and J'Elle Stainer's subcontra.

Finally, I want to mention that I've seen pics of an Evette-Schaeffer contra with the Evette-Schaeffer System keywork -- that's keywork a tad different from the Apogee keywork. That means that with one contra, you really could satisfy a lot of the "requirements" I've listed.
 
A rare triple-post from me:

I dunno if anyone has noticed, but there is no single company that has produced all the pitches of saxophone available today, from Bb sopranissimo to Bb subcontrabass. As a matter of fact, I don't know of any company that even produced all the pitches that were currently invented at the time. Conn probably has the best claim, but they didn't have an Eb contrabass or a C bass. Of course they may have had an Eb contrabass prototype and did have an A soprano prototype, so I consider Conn to have had the largest saxophone range of any company. I was thinking that a favorite Germanic company of mine had the largest range, but Kohlert didn't have an Eb sopranino or a C bass -- the former fact I think is more interesting than the latter.

I wonder if Adler or WA Stowasser had a range from Eb sopranino through Eb contrabass. Stowasser was really big and definitely produced a contra. Adler history is all tangled, so it wouldn't surprise me if they did produce the entire range.

The C bass? I've seen several European basses described as such. Yes, they may have all been high-pich horns, but one of those manufacturers was A. Sax ....
 
You're missing a LOT of Selmers, dude! No Mark VII, none of the Super 80 Serie, no Reference horns! Not to mention the Bird series and the new "Jubilee" finish!

Then there's the highly sought after, über collectible, Mark IV. ;-) :emoji_smile:

#2 in my list :p.

However, if you do want to get a little more granular on that, you could collect, say, the TWO American-made basses, a Conn and a Buescher.

Ooops... That would have required me to read, wouldn't it? :oops:

.... There is the possibility of a *couple* of horns made by another company -- Martin and Holton are the ones I generally hear about -- but those would be in low enough quantity to be considered "prototype." (As a matter of fact, I checked through my archives and I can't even find a bass stenciled "HN White" or "King." Have you seen any, Helen?)


Re: Holton, Jay Easton has stated in the past, on the Bass Sax Co-op, that he either had, or had played (can't remember which now), a Holton-made bass. True, Holton had the majority of their bass saxes made by Buescher or Conn, at least 1 was made by the company itself, so it may well fit into the prototype category you mention Pete.

Re: King, nope, never seen, or heard of a King bass. To the best of my knowledge they never offered one.

I wonder if Adler or WA Stowasser had a range from Eb sopranino through Eb contrabass. Stowasser was really big and definitely produced a contra. Adler history is all tangled, so it wouldn't surprise me if they did produce the entire range.

The C bass? I've seen several European basses described as such. Yes, they may have all been high-pich horns, but one of those manufacturers was A. Sax ....


Actually, Oscar Adler had the largest range of any German maker, and their instruments are all in the possession of the Gebrüder Mönnig Oscar Adler & Co Holzblasinstrumentenbau GmbH. (BTW, the history isn't that tangled Pete.)

Oscar Adler made a lot of different models of saxophones, and even offered 9 different models of C basses. However, it was only their Eterna model, that offered the full line of saxophones consisting of the Eb sopranino, C soprano, Bb soprano (straight) Bb soprano (curved) Eb alto, C, meldoy, Bb tenor, Eb baritone, C bass Bb bass, & Eb contrabass.

I do need to update my Oscar Adler page (the link provided above). I have a lot more photos to illustrate the various horns and features I mention in the model chart. Also, I just received an email the other day from a fellow who just bought an OA bass. He sent me some pics already, with more on the way. Interesting horn. I still would love to find a Triumph one day. These are probably among the most complex saxophones ever built--current, 1-handed, custom saxophones notwithstanding. Sadly, the couple I've seen up for auction have been missing pieces, and were altos.
 
I have a friend who entered a musical competition for saxophone players out on the West Coast some twenty years or so ago.

The first prize was a pristine Selmer Mark VII alto

The second prize was a pair of pristine Selmer Mark VII altos...
 
As I've said in the past, if you have a Mark VII you want to get rid of, send 'em my way!
 
I still would love to find a Triumph one day. These are probably among the most complex saxophones ever built--current, 1-handed, custom saxophones notwithstanding. Sadly, the couple I've seen up for auction have been missing pieces, and were altos.
Ah. http://bassic-sax.info/4images/details.php?image_id=12404.

I start to wonder about the horns that have the alternate low C#/B/Bb because that's an obvious ripoff of Evette-Schaeffer's keywork. However, I suppose that depends on how old the Triumphs are and/or how long the Evette-Schaeffer/Buffet patents lasted. It's also not the most complex key-system out there. A Raymond Dubois Essor had more alternate keywork, for instance. The Leblanc Le Rationnels are more complex than that, too.

You also didn't mention if Adler had F altos, so there :p.
 
If they're not in the chart, then Adler didn't build them. So no, they didn't build any F altos. I think with 11 horns, they did a pretty good job of covering the bases though. Not much call for the F alto I figure.

Attilio Berni provided me with really nice pics of his Triumph alto. There you can see the key layout quite well. (I need to re-jig my Adler section. I should break it into horn models. Unfortunately many of the horns have no model names engraved on them.)

BTW, I didn't say OA's horns were the most complex, I just said they were among the most complex. IMO, the most complex is Jim Schmidt's. He can say all he wants that it's intuitive. I'm not seeing it. Maybe if you started on the his horn, then sure, but to switch after a life-time of playing... not so much.
 
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:D :D

I have a friend who entered a musical competition for saxophone players out on the West Coast some twenty years or so ago.

The first prize was a pristine Selmer Mark VII alto

The second prize was a pair of pristine Selmer Mark VII altos...

I don't know how I missed that before. That is funny. Oh wait, that wasn't a joke? :p
 
If they're not in the chart, then Adler didn't build them. So no, they didn't build any F altos. I think with 11 horns, they did a pretty good job of covering the bases though. Not much call for the F alto I figure.
HA! :D

So that essentially means that Adler produced as many saxophone pitches as Conn, provided you don't count Adler's 4 different "style" C basses (etc.) as separate pitches. Adler does earn lots of points for having that many models of each pitch at once, though!

For lunch, today, because I was burned out studying all things computer certification related, I did some investigating on Adler. One of the reasons I mentioned that Adler history was screwy is that there really isn't that much info out there. For a company as big as Adler was, that's kinda interesting. As another example of this, I hit Mimo, which is the main museum source I've used for my somewhat less incomplete list of Adolphe Sax saxophones, because it searches a couple dozen European museum collections. No mention of Adler and sax. Pic of a Kohlert contra, though.

I also did some random Googling and came up with ... your website.

Attilio Berni provided me with really nice pics of his Triumph alto. There you can see the key layout quite well. (I need to re-jig my Adler section. I should break it into horn models. Unfortunately many of the horns have no model names engraved on them.)
It's a nice horn. I like the left hand altissimo stack. However, it looks a bit "unrefined." In other words, functional but not pretty.

As far as the breakdown goes, I'd love to help. If I can find more pics.

BTW, I didn't say OA's horns were the most complex, I just said they were among the most complex. IMO, the most complex is Jim Schmidt's. He can say all he wants that it's intuitive. I'm not seeing it. Maybe if you started on the his horn, then sure, but to switch after a life-time of playing... not so much.
I know; I'm just performing for the crowd :D.

I really don't know how it'd be to play a JS horn. I understand the principle he's using, but I don't think I'd have full understanding until I played the horn. I also haven't gotten too in-depth researching them. I could go for a review from someone.
 
Benedikt sent me an interesting email that I can use for his pages on my site. In it he talks about why the original contras didn't work very well, and what he had to change in order to have it actually work the way that it does. He also talks about the differences between his contra & the Orsi.

I'd like to read that message from Benedikt.
 
I hardly take anything you say seriously Pete. :p Because if I did, I'd think you were calling Germans "unrefined", or functional, and not "pretty". ;) We all know that's completely the opposite of true. :D (She says with tongue firmly planted in cheek.)

Yeah, my website pops up everywhere. You can't get away from me.

I believe that German manufacturing at the time of the Triumph, was known more for its utilitarianism, than for its "pretty" factor. Sure, there were some very pretty German horns at the time, but they had conventional key work.

I will have to ask Uwe if I can use some of the brochures that are in the research docs he sent me. I haven't used them up until now, because I knew that he was going to use them in his book. The book is of course now published, and I'm not sure of what copyrights apply. IIRC, he has some brochures of OA horns as well as some great Hammerschmidt, etc. stuff.
 
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