Should I buy a modern sax???

rleitch

Hey folks!

This one has been grinding in my mind for some time, and I just can't seem to figure it out.

Basically, my problem is that I can't figure out if it would be good for my development as a player to purchase a modern tenor sax.

Right now I play a Martin Dick Stabile (Committee stencil). It's a great sax in all sorts of Martin-esque ways, but it also has significant drawbacks, especially the left pinky cluster and the intonation between G and Bb in the second octave. While I think having to deal with these quirks has made me a better player (well maybe not the pinky torture device), I'm really starting to feel held back by them.

So, I often think I should move to a modern horn, and my budget would include horns like a PB or CEWinds Taiwan horn.

However, and herein lies the rub,

1. I tried this already with a Yani T901 and it just didn't do it for me. I bought it, got it set up, and then rarely wanted to play it instead of the Martin.

2. I really think I should be a One-Horn type of player: I barely have the time to improve on one horn, let alone try to be competent on two

So, while I know there are some great deals out there, I'm worried I'll get one and it'll just sit there.

Opinions and advice warmly welcomed!

Rory
 
How about putting the martin mods table on the horn? That might solve the pinky table issue. You might consider asking if shims in the toneholes could improve the intonation on those specific notes.

You would probably like the Keilwerth New King models and stencils but that's not technically a modern horn anymore!
 
So you have a tenor you like, didn't like modern horns and wonder if you should spring for a new instrument? Doesn't sound like a good fit to me. And you rarely if ever get your money back from the purchase of a new horn, so I'm assuming you mean a used 'modern' tenor.
 
What's a "PB"? Other than the symbol for lead on the periodic table, I don't think I've heard that one before.

The Dick Stabile is not a Committee stencil, by the way. It's got elements of several Martins, but no Committee.

In any event, the DS was supposed to have been the best combination of intonation and tone for a Martin-made instrument. Ergonomics? They weren't as much of a concern.

Here's the DS G# cluster, for those folks wanting a picture. I, personally, don't like the style because my pinky's been broken a couple times and it hurts to play C#/B/Bb with this setup. However, the spring tension can be adjusted a bit -- although, maybe not as much as you want: that cluster has some pretty long rods to deal with and a certain amount of minimum tension is needed.

So G/G#/A/Bb are all out of tune in the second octave? I'm virtually positive that you've got an octave key that's probably either opening too much or not enough. That sounds fixable!

I'd say, "Let a tech have a crack at it!" first, before thinking "different horn". However, if you do think "different horn", Keilwerth (or H-Couf -- not the 23000) might be more up your alley. Not even a new one.
 
Both Ed & Jim here have raised some very good points.

The Martin Mods might very well be worth checking into. That will definitely solve your problems with your left pinkie cluster.

Re: the intonation issues, what does your tech say? Is it actually the horn? Are the key heights OK? Have all the other variables been ruled out? Embouchure, etc? Some vintage, and modern (including my Medusa bari), horns just have quirks, and you have to compensate for notes. For all of my horns, they each require slightly different adjustments in my facial muscles. I don't think about it anymore. I just know which horn needs what, and it happens automatically.

What I'm picking up from your message is you want to be able to concentrate on one horn, that you feel comfortable on, like the sound of, and can play comfortably over all the registers. This way you can focus on becoming the best player you can, and still like the sound you are hearing emanating from your horn. Did I get that right Rory?

What do you like about your Martin? If you can answer that question, then you'll be half way to the answer of "should I be looking for a new sax".

Then there's Jim's point... But that's another good point which naturally follows this first one. But depending on the answer to the first point, you might not need to go down this road at all.
 
Pete: I know what PB means but I refuse to write his name anywhere. I wouldn't own anything of his if it was the best and free.

Rory: I think that a modern horn regardless of quality, would not meet your expectations given your experience with the Yanagisaw and Martin. I have several altos and sopranos but with the altos, I've been playing my mid-1920's Buescher TT lately and nothing in my closet compares as far as tone and projection goes. With sopranos, I love my Buescher but lately have been playing a curved Yanagisawa and it serves me well. Funny, one vintage and one modern. Oh well . . .

However, some guys I know who have modern and vintage in tenor and baritone MUCH prefer the vintage horns. The one vintage Buescher baritone I heard a while back had it all over the modern bari's in the store where I was. It was obvious to everyone in the store.

So, my advice would be to go vintage. DAVE
 
I agree with Ed. Keilwerth seems to have a pinky cluster that's more
comfortable for me. My pinky hasn't been mangled like Pete's and I'm not a small guy either,
they just seem to line up best for me. I love their sound too. Real big on the bottom end like a Martin,
but a bit better up top IMO.
 
Dave Dolson said:
However, some guys I know who have modern and vintage in tenor and baritone MUCH prefer the vintage horns.
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Include me in that list. I have two modern tenors and three vintage. I can't describe it, and it might be in my head, but the old ones seem to have more tonal character. That's a vague way to say it, I know. Like an old pair of shoes or an old Army blanket. The newer ones (Ref 54 and PB) are fine horns, but there's always just something not there. I can't pin it down, and I don't know that it would be the same for others.

Rory: Sometimes you're just jonesin' for a change. I know that feeling. Go out and play some horns. Find out what you like. If you decide to try a PB sight-unseen, there is a moneyback guarantee. I am told that the option has been used only once for whatever that's worth.
 
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All of my main horns and backups are generally considered vintage with the exception of my soprano. It plays like a great vintage horn though so I will let it slide . . . and it is a soprano and it's not like anyone ever ASKS me to play that one!
 
I've always suspected there was something wrong with me, and now I know. I find the left pinkie cluster on a 10M more comfortable than the Selmer-style clusters. Just a case of delayed development, I suppose. :-(
 
Hey Rory,

I really think you should look for a King Super 20. The early Eastlakes are great horns and go for ridiculously low prices. They really play every bit as well as the Cleveland tenors, at least the later ones with single socket neck (have not tried the double socket necks). They can be scooped up for not a whole more that $2K if you can live with the brass neck model. The side F# could use a pearl and the G# is angled slightly more to the left than on Selmer styled horns. However, these are really is very minor differences. I can switch back and forth without effort. The keywork is really fast and the horns keep their adjustment exceptionally well, not to mention that they are built like a tank. I wouldn't trade my Eastlake tenor for any modern horn. Importantly, they are great jazz horns. Put a Linkish piece and you get a full-bodied bold sound. My Eastlake even has the original pick-up. I asked my repairman to take it off but he declined. No point in messing with a horn that plays great as is.

My two cents. In a rare case on this forum, something where I actually think I can contribute a qualified opinion.

Best wishes,
Steen
 
retread said:
I've always suspected there was something wrong with me, and now I know. I find the left pinkie cluster on a 10M more comfortable than the Selmer-style clusters. Just a case of delayed development, I suppose. :-(
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I played a local pros 10M a few months ago and it was the best playing 10M I had ever come across. The cluster was fine. Sprung lighter than what I remember them to be like. The horn was huge with a great tone.

A section mate brought his 30M this week to big band rehearsal. Great sounding horn. Didn't get a chance to play it as I didn't have my mouthpiece. I asked him when he bought it - he said "oh I bought it new in 1939". :-D
 
Although my situation has changed in the last 3 years since I developed my nasty little neurological problem, I generally have no problem with the left pinkie clusters in any of the horns I own. The only one that now gives me any grief is that on my Martin Handcraft tenor. (My Buescher bass would too if I was actively playing it in a band.)

Honestly, I'm not sure if the pinkie cluster alone would hold a person back from progressing as a player. You work with the tools you have. You learn to use them. That is of course, provided the tools are in good repair.

Will a modern horn make a person a better player? I think that's an interesting question that could use it's own thread. There are lots of angles that we could explore there.
 
Just wrangling a couple points that were brought up earlier:

30M: As I've mentioned before, this was the first Conn model that I've ever played that made me think, "Gee, people that like Conns aren't completely insane." Unfortunately the G# cluster is a bit different, but not completely so (i.e. it still has a very similar layout) and these horns are pricey.

10M Artist/Standard: Again, the G# cluster really isn't that different. While these horns aren't incredibly pricey, you need to pinpoint if you want rolled tone holes and/or underslung octave keys and stuff. They were made for a loooong time and changed quite a bit.

Super 20: The G# cluster changed a lot over the S20 manufacturing run, from the "three across" C#/B/Bb to a more Selmer-ish style. However, a) they're extremely pricey (steen, I think you're off by $500 - $1000) and b) they're not known for outstanding intonation. Power, definitely.

Barone/P. Mauriat/Cannonball: While the keywork is improved over the DS, I'm not convinced that these are better horns and/or have the longevity of even your DS. I think "CEWinds" isn't a big enough name to warrant choosing them -- what happens if they close up shop tomorrow? Additionally, while some Barone horns (like Al's) seem to be very P. Mauriat-like, what about the ones that are Cannonball-like? It's one of those, "You need to go to a dealer, test a specific horn and buy that specific horn."

Overall, I think that you just need a bit of repair on your DS to fix the intonation and maybe some talk with a repairman regarding what to do with that G# cluster. I think that the combination of those items would be significantly cheaper than switching horns and that you'd be happier.
 
pete said:
-- what happens if they close up shop tomorrow?
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That question has been asked before. I think nothing happens that doesn't happen if they don't close up. You still have a serviceable saxophone. I saw a Studebaker drive down the road the other day. :-D
 
Helen said:
Will a modern horn make a person a better player? I think that's an interesting question that could use it's own thread. There are lots of angles that we could explore there.
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Thanks for the GAS therapy everyone!

For me, this is the real issue. I could be very happy continuing to work on my playing on the Martin...except for the nagging feeling that I have that I might be better off with a horn with all the advantages/advances of a modern horn with modern (i.e. Selmer style) keywork.

Rory
 
rleitch said:
Right now I play a Martin Dick Stabile (Committee stencil). It's a great sax in all sorts of Martin-esque ways, but it also has significant drawbacks, especially the left pinky cluster and the intonation between G and Bb in the second octave. While I think having to deal with these quirks has made me a better player (well maybe not the pinky torture device), I'm really starting to feel held back by them.


Rory
Click to expand...

What are your issues with the cluster and intonation. We deal with this kind of stuff all of the time!

Have a blessed evening!
Jeff "Doc" Frazier
www.JandJWoodwinds.com
866-996-6394
 
Disclaimer: I only like modern keys (i.e. left pinky) and sell new modern saxophones.

That said, I would say: No, you shouldn't necessarily buy a modern saxophone.

You might want to, and in that case, I recommend just trying different ones and see if you find something you like better than your Martin. Maybe just that Yanagisawas wasn't for you, but something else might be.

About the problems with your Martin: I don't know if it is the same, but a friend of mine plays a Martin tenor (The Martin model). When he bought it, he was already used to modern keys, and he ordered it without even trying based on liking some other Martin.

Now, after some years of playing it, the left pinky keys are not a problem, and he play as fast and as fluid as anyone on any saxophone.

For intonation: It definitely has intonation issues that are pretty much gone or much smaller on modern saxophones. His saxophone was overhauled by a vintage sax specialist in USA, so any fixable intonation problems are supposedly already fixed. The entire second octave is relatively sharp.

So, he fixed the intonation problems by pracitcing. He simply learned how to play that saxophone. He did an excercise where he played octaves, but he played the second octave notes purposely very flat, 1/4 tone and sometimes even 1/2 flat. He developed his embochure so he was used to this saxophone and eventually was able to play with good intonation comfortably, without struggling. There are still a few "quirks" but not significantly different than most players with modern saxophones.

So if you really like the tone of this saxophone, and there aren't problems that are physically or intonation-wise compeltely impossible, I think it is possible to improve a lot by practicing and getting used to it.
 
Thanks again for all the thoughtful comments folks.

Clarnibass pretty much nailed the quirks of this horn: the upper regisiter is relatively sharp compared to the lower...and then the front E and F play a bit flat. Martinmods has got the pinky cluster: the lever attaching the C# to the rod is too short to give leverage, and so that key is horribly heavy. It can only be lightened a bit: too much and the key itself vibrates open when you play the notes C-Bb below.

Clarnibass also pretty accurately describes what I have been doing: spending a lot of time practicing this horn: i.e. drilling those octaves between middle and high G3-B to get the intonation right and working extra hard on anything with the low C# in it.

As I said, I think to some extent this work (especially the intonation stuff) has been good for me, but something Julian (aka SideC ) said about his MarkVI has stuck in my mind: he says, in effect, he wants a horn that makes it easier, not harder, to play the things he wants to play.

Rory

ps. I've thought a lot about the Martinmods replacement key: I'd do it in a minute if I were close by, but to do it means shipping the horn twice across the border. I wonder if he would sell the hardware to be installed locally?
 
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