Beg to differ. I have been following the prices on early Eastlakes, and they are not doing well at all at the moment. I have no inclination to sell mine (love it), but it bothers me somehow to see these horns go for so little. I believe that there is some truth in that the lesser valued horns are, the less well they are take care of. Anyway, I stand by that an early Eastlake is a good way to go for a vintage horn with modernish keywork and the intonation, while not perfect, certainly does not suffer from the flaws that Rory describes for his Dick Stabile.
Should I buy a modern sax???
- Thread starter rleitch
- Start date
It seems to me that the vintage horn market, like everything else, is pretty f'd up at the moment. I think prices depend on where you buy said sax.
I know that World Wide Sax's prices haven't changed. I just bought a Zephyr tenor from Sarge at World Wide Sax. It cost the same as it would have a year ago. His labour rate has not gone down, and he doesn't sell his horns without a restoration.
Some dealers are dropping their prices, but are selling their horns with no work done on them. (I'm thinking of Sax Quest for example.) So in reality, while the price might initially be lower, value added is missing. By the time you add it, well you're up to the price you would have paid to begin with.
As far as eBay goes, well I don't really know what to make of it. Sometimes I think it's an accurate barometer of things, other times not so much.
The safe bet is always to see what the reputable vintage dealers such as Vintage Sax.com, World Wide Sax, et al are doing with their prices. That to me is the true barometer of things.
Those are my 2 virtual cents contribution to this discussion Steen. And worth every one of those virtual pennies. ;-)
I know that World Wide Sax's prices haven't changed. I just bought a Zephyr tenor from Sarge at World Wide Sax. It cost the same as it would have a year ago. His labour rate has not gone down, and he doesn't sell his horns without a restoration.
Some dealers are dropping their prices, but are selling their horns with no work done on them. (I'm thinking of Sax Quest for example.) So in reality, while the price might initially be lower, value added is missing. By the time you add it, well you're up to the price you would have paid to begin with.
As far as eBay goes, well I don't really know what to make of it. Sometimes I think it's an accurate barometer of things, other times not so much.
The safe bet is always to see what the reputable vintage dealers such as Vintage Sax.com, World Wide Sax, et al are doing with their prices. That to me is the true barometer of things.
Those are my 2 virtual cents contribution to this discussion Steen. And worth every one of those virtual pennies. ;-)
That's more-or-less the case with what I've seen, but mainly for "desirable" Selmers (BA, SBA, Mark VI) -- at least, about a year or so ago. The reasoning from these dealers is, "Well, people buy the Selmer name and I can make a good deal of profit on the instrument without having to do much of anything." However, with less desireable horns, you'd generally find them with full overhauls. The obvious exceptions are WorldWideSax which, as Helen mentioned, almost always sells an overhauled horn, and JunkDude.com, which almost always sells an "as-is" horn. (BTB, both of these dealers have always been very up-front about what condition something's in and what they've done to 'em; just look at their ad copy on their respective websites.)
Even though one could say that the cost of wholesale parts (pads, springs, etc.) and the in-house cost of labor is less expensive for a dealer, so his $650 overhaul really costs him $400 or whatever, I'm pretty positive that those margins are shrinking quite a bit in today's economy, so the dealer's not making as much on a horn if he overhauls it -- especially if it sits around for a year because no one's interested in it (or 5+ years, in the case of VintageSax's Holton Rudy Wiedoeft alto).
In any event, I did do a lot of past research on Super 20 tenors and I stand on my opinion, based on my historical numbers. I also just looked at all the various dealers and eBay. Lots of $6K Super 20's. Cheapest was $2675 for a 1982 instrument at USAHorn.com -- or a really beat-up one on eBay for $1365 (however, it was listed and sold three different times at three different prices, so your guess is as good as mine if it's legit).
Remember, there are people who are paying $13K for a Mark VI tenor that are still out there ....
Yeah but Pete, I don't think that that particular 5 digit Selmer tenor you point to was made of discarded shell casings that littered Europe after WWII. If it was, it would have been played more because it would have sounded better. 
I'd only pay that much for a Mark VI if I could have proof of the shell casing construction of the horn that I was interested in. Without that documented evidence, I'd have to pass on a horn. No matter how pretty it is. :-D
BTW, please no one take this seriously. It is nearly time for my medication.
I wrote a tongue in cheek article on the Mark VIs and shell casings and even managed to tie in bass saxophones. If you're interested, check it out sometime when you need a good laugh.
I'd only pay that much for a Mark VI if I could have proof of the shell casing construction of the horn that I was interested in. Without that documented evidence, I'd have to pass on a horn. No matter how pretty it is. :-D
BTW, please no one take this seriously. It is nearly time for my medication.
I wrote a tongue in cheek article on the Mark VIs and shell casings and even managed to tie in bass saxophones. If you're interested, check it out sometime when you need a good laugh.
Yikes - I guess I find myself in virtual disagreement with moderators of WooF.
PM Woodwinds recently had one in OK shape for $2,500. There is one for private sale here:
http://www.shmuelyosef.com/Saxophones/KingS20/king_super_20.htm
Even comes with both brass and silver necks, the latter of which will surely fetch at least $400. I have nothing to do with seller or the horn other than a couple of unsuccessful attempt of wrestling the silver neck away without having to buy the horn.
It seems to me that the Super 20 market is more stratified that for any other make or model. Beyond serial number fetish, there is obsession with pearls, sunburst engravings, left pinky cluster, silver neck (± double socket), and most importantly the silver sonics. Once you get past all that, and can find a decent private seller, the prices really start dropping. I got mine for $2,000 before the economy went south, including recent overhaul and oversized sterling silver resonators. I doubt they make a difference and I sure was lucky but I have seen several Eastlakes below 500K go for rather modest sums.
I respectfully stick to my line of argumentation and not because it is of any importance to me to be right, since I am very often wrong or at least in the distinct minority with my opinions.
Best,
Steen
No prob, Steen. (However, remember that the horn you mention has been delacquered and polished, too.)
As far as the S20, as a model, goes, definitely the older the horn, the more features. However, I don't know if there were any significant bore changes throughout the S20's life. Considering that the neck changed from double-socket to single-socket and the octave key changed from underslung to over-the-top, that might be the only significant difference -- but a few folks seem to think that the neck does a lot for the overall sound.
> It seems to me that the Super 20 market is more stratified that for any other make or model.
That, and the Mark VI -- but by serial number, finish, and that low A extension for the altos. If you really want to extend the examples, there's also the Conn Standard/Artist, as I've mentioned before, where you also can talk about the neck, rolled tone holes and engraving/finish.
Interestingly -- to me, at least -- Conn and King both made some additions to their "best" horn models to improve them, for a few years, then spent MANY years slowly taking away features.
Selmer randomly added features as they were patented, but were otherwise consistent and didn't really change the design. Buescher made changes, too, until they came out with the Super 400/Aristocrat without the Big B engraving, mostly in bore modifications, particularly at the bell end.
In other words, the final Mark VI tenor and alto looked a lot like the ones that rolled off the assembly line in 1954, but the last Conn Artist, King Super 20 and Buescher Aristocrat/400 looked a lot different from the ones that first rolled off the assembly line.
Just an observation and a little off topic, but, hey, it's interesting.
As far as the S20, as a model, goes, definitely the older the horn, the more features. However, I don't know if there were any significant bore changes throughout the S20's life. Considering that the neck changed from double-socket to single-socket and the octave key changed from underslung to over-the-top, that might be the only significant difference -- but a few folks seem to think that the neck does a lot for the overall sound.
> It seems to me that the Super 20 market is more stratified that for any other make or model.
That, and the Mark VI -- but by serial number, finish, and that low A extension for the altos. If you really want to extend the examples, there's also the Conn Standard/Artist, as I've mentioned before, where you also can talk about the neck, rolled tone holes and engraving/finish.
Interestingly -- to me, at least -- Conn and King both made some additions to their "best" horn models to improve them, for a few years, then spent MANY years slowly taking away features.
Selmer randomly added features as they were patented, but were otherwise consistent and didn't really change the design. Buescher made changes, too, until they came out with the Super 400/Aristocrat without the Big B engraving, mostly in bore modifications, particularly at the bell end.
In other words, the final Mark VI tenor and alto looked a lot like the ones that rolled off the assembly line in 1954, but the last Conn Artist, King Super 20 and Buescher Aristocrat/400 looked a lot different from the ones that first rolled off the assembly line.
Just an observation and a little off topic, but, hey, it's interesting.
Yikes - I guess I find myself in virtual disagreement with moderators of WooF.
That's allowed steen. No worries. If we all agreed on everything, then we'd never have anything to talk about on these boards. It makes life more interesting.
I just looked at the link to that Super 20 steen, that's an interesting horn. Private sales are certainly always a good place to look when looking for the best deals. Lots of variables come into play of course, and not all horns you get from a private seller will be in playable condition, but when you get one that is, and for a good price, then you've done really well.
The Zeph I just bought from Steve at World Wide Sax is also basically delacquered, but got so from 5+ decades of use from 1 pro who used it his entire career. It was, IIRC, a 1 owner horn. I'm going down to the shop this coming week to pick up my new horn. It will be a treat to play I'm sure.
When I play tested it last year, prior to its restoration, it absolutely screamed. For a rocker like me, it is a great choice. (I only waffled for 6 months before deciding to buy it. ;-) ) I suspect that this Super 20 you link to here will be a screamer as well.
I've seen some minty King Super 20s for well over 5K. There actually is one again on Chris's www.hnwhite.com website for $5100. You can find it in the store section of the site. His horns are always minty. (Although I personally think that minty is sometimes over-rated.)
I remember a guy from SOTW, forgot his name, who basically ended up giving away his Zeph tenor with a Gloger neck, for about the cost of the neck, or just under it. Had I not already paid Steve half for my Zeph, I probably would have gone for that horn instead.
Prices are pretty stratified: Depends on where you buy, and who you buy from. For me, I'm just excited that I'm a King owner again after 25 years. I gave up a Super 20 for my Mark VI. It will be great to have the Zeph as my rock 'n roll horn.
The Zeph I just bought from Steve at World Wide Sax is also basically delacquered, but got so from 5+ decades of use from 1 pro who used it his entire career. It was, IIRC, a 1 owner horn. I'm going down to the shop this coming week to pick up my new horn. It will be a treat to play I'm sure.
When I play tested it last year, prior to its restoration, it absolutely screamed. For a rocker like me, it is a great choice. (I only waffled for 6 months before deciding to buy it. ;-) ) I suspect that this Super 20 you link to here will be a screamer as well.
I've seen some minty King Super 20s for well over 5K. There actually is one again on Chris's www.hnwhite.com website for $5100. You can find it in the store section of the site. His horns are always minty. (Although I personally think that minty is sometimes over-rated.)
I remember a guy from SOTW, forgot his name, who basically ended up giving away his Zeph tenor with a Gloger neck, for about the cost of the neck, or just under it. Had I not already paid Steve half for my Zeph, I probably would have gone for that horn instead.
Prices are pretty stratified: Depends on where you buy, and who you buy from. For me, I'm just excited that I'm a King owner again after 25 years. I gave up a Super 20 for my Mark VI. It will be great to have the Zeph as my rock 'n roll horn.
I make 3 versions of LH table keys:
1. Vintage
2. Vintage Deluxe
3. Contemporary
The Vintage is the same as my avatar, and is the simplest to make/install. It consists of replacing the arms and spatulas of your original LH table keys, giving you ca 1/2" more leverage, better spatula design, and better table placement. For this version, you could send only your keys, if you didn't want to ship your horn.
The Vintage Deluxe, is similar to the Vintage model, but adds a tilting Bb, linked to C#, and an articulated C#. This requires that you send your horn.
The Contemporary, is an adaptation of the Mk6 LH table keys, and looks like: http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/album.php?albumid=48
Besides the Mk6-style table, it adds a tilting B spatula linked to C#, and sliding rollers for adjustable leverage and key travel on each R/L linkage. You have to send your horn in for this one.
Martin Intonation: The intonation on Martins is superb (vintage standards) provided, the horn is setup correctly (flat or round resos - no Maestro - and correct key height), the mouthpiece is matched to the horn volume-wise/frequency-wise, and the lower register pip is replaced. Further refinement can be obtained by replacing the cylindrical tenon, with a conical tenon/receiver pair.
This is pretty much the same for all the great vintage horns.
9 years ago, after 35 year on Mk6's, I realized that the vintage American sound was what I really wanted as a player. I sold my 82k Mk6 tenor and bought a #300,996 1948 King Super 20 tenor which was great. Then, about 2 years ago, I heard John Michalak demo a The Martin Tenor on a CE Winds eBay auction. My stomach got a knot in it and I got goose bumps. That was the sound I was looking for, dark, endless dynamic range that brightens up when you push it, and a zing in the upper register that won't quit. I sold the King, and bought ATB Martins, and have been ecstatically happy with them.
I was responding to Helen's request for info on a Dolnet Belair and decided my response was more useful as part of this thread.
Helen, I've said it before and I'll say it again; you are so much braver than I when it comes to vintage instruments. I've yet to find a vintage instrument with the ergos and inherent intonation of a modern horn. Everyone of my vintage instruments are considered by many as the best in class and they each have 'distractions' that make them challenging to play with.
Here are the vintage instruments I still will play:
Helen, I've said it before and I'll say it again; you are so much braver than I when it comes to vintage instruments. I've yet to find a vintage instrument with the ergos and inherent intonation of a modern horn. Everyone of my vintage instruments are considered by many as the best in class and they each have 'distractions' that make them challenging to play with.
Here are the vintage instruments I still will play:
- Selmer silver clarinet (I use this mainly for shock and prefer my Buffet (festival) R-13
- Conn straight-neck C melody sax (haven't found a modern equivalent that I prefer)
- Conn C sop (Although the Eppelshiem C sop is much better)
- Conn F Mezzo (don't expect to ever find a modern version)
- Buescher bass sax (I still favor the Eppelshiem bass sax to low A)
I still think it depends on your definition of "vintage." Are you talking "non-Balanced Action keywork" or "1930 or older?"
I agree with you that it takes much more effort to play some horns that were made before, say, 1970. I also tend to agree that some pre-1970 pro horns (and some post-) have inherent intonation challenges, but I can't blanket "all" horns with this. Hey, I very much liked my Buffet Dynaction alto (made between 1950 and 1957) and my Keilwerth-made Bundy bari (made in the 1960s).
I agree with you that it takes much more effort to play some horns that were made before, say, 1970. I also tend to agree that some pre-1970 pro horns (and some post-) have inherent intonation challenges, but I can't blanket "all" horns with this. Hey, I very much liked my Buffet Dynaction alto (made between 1950 and 1957) and my Keilwerth-made Bundy bari (made in the 1960s).
There are three things that anyone must have in order to play a good vintage horn in tune and to enjoy it:
1. a developed embouchure
2. a developed sense of pitch
3. a clear mental image of what they want to sound like and the ability to change the vocal tract resonator to match that image.
If you have those things, a good vintage horn is a thrill to play (any ergonomic problem can be solved with very little trouble), and no modern horn can compare. At least, I haven't played one yet. Embouchure gymnastics and alternate fingerings are not necessary at all. If you can keep your embouchure steady, formed for the sound that you have in your head (combined with setting your oral tract resonator correctly - voicing the note), and you can keep it there from top to bottom, on long tones too, then all you need to do is to tell the horn exactly where you want it to go. They are supremely flexible and happy to oblige. The player is in control, so if there is the slightest doubt about where the note should be, or you are not man enough (sorry Helen) to keep your lip steady, then the horn will let you know it. It's not the horn's problem though. It's the player's.
1. a developed embouchure
2. a developed sense of pitch
3. a clear mental image of what they want to sound like and the ability to change the vocal tract resonator to match that image.
If you have those things, a good vintage horn is a thrill to play (any ergonomic problem can be solved with very little trouble), and no modern horn can compare. At least, I haven't played one yet. Embouchure gymnastics and alternate fingerings are not necessary at all. If you can keep your embouchure steady, formed for the sound that you have in your head (combined with setting your oral tract resonator correctly - voicing the note), and you can keep it there from top to bottom, on long tones too, then all you need to do is to tell the horn exactly where you want it to go. They are supremely flexible and happy to oblige. The player is in control, so if there is the slightest doubt about where the note should be, or you are not man enough (sorry Helen) to keep your lip steady, then the horn will let you know it. It's not the horn's problem though. It's the player's.
Prove it Lance. You live down the street now. I'll provide you the C sops vintage and modern and you can show me. Otherwise, it's all talk.
+1 Thank you Lance! (You could fix that little "man" problem, by saying "player" BTW.) I would only add provided that the horn would have to have of good quality build to begin with. In other words, a POS from 1945 will still be a POS in 2010. Or to put it another way: You can put lipstick on a pig...
These are of course somewhat subjective things, and rather personal feelings and observations about tone. But I too have not yet found a modern horn that can hold a candle to the great vintage horns. Although Gandalfe's Reference 36 and my friend's Mad Meg (both tenors) come close.
Prove it Lance. You live down the street now. I'll provide you the C sops vintage and modern and you can show me. Otherwise, it's all talk.
No problem. I never touched a C soprano before, nor do I own a C soprano mouthpiece. (The mouthpiece has to match the horn, for the horn to play in tune, expecially older horns, and smaller horns are more critical than larger horns). I'd determine what volume/frs the vintage horn needed, and the new one too, and proceed from there. I wouldn't judge a horn not being certain if the mouthpiece met it's requirements or not. Then, you'd have to wait for me to get to know the horns- a couple of weeks at the rate I'm practicing right now.
Since I don't know anything about C sopranos, I couldn't tell you if any vintage C sopranos ever were good instruments or not. Maybe they weren't. I didn't say that all vintage horns are good. I said, all good vintage horns are easy to play in tune, if you can play.
I always like to be told I have good points.
Here's another way of looking at it: is the horn, itself, going to limit you in how you play? Riffing a bit on MartinMods' post -- and playing a bit into his business -- I don't really want to have a horn that has things I have to "overcome." I don't want poor keywork, like the ergonomics nightmare that is the G# cluster on the Martin Magna. I don't really want to compensate for an F# that you always have to play with a chromatic fingering because it's always a bit sharp, otherwise. I don't want a horn that plays "stuffy" on the mouthpiece I use.
It's all tradeoffs, no matter what horn. There are so many factors to consider:
* Inexpensive
* Good keywork
* Low A (bari), altissimo F#, altissimo G
* Switchable "articulated" G#
* Chromatic F# or the lack thereof
* Pretty
* Sturdiness
* Resale
* Tone
* Intonation
* Plays nice with the mouthpiece I like
... and each one can be weighted accordingly. If you want an inexpensive bari with a low A, for instance, that severely cuts your options for the other points!
Moreover, I've mentioned many times that I thought ALL Conns were junk because the ones I owned/played didn't work for me. Then I tried a 30M. However, I wouldn't WANT the 30M if I had other choices: I think I play better, sound better and play in better tune on, say, a Yamaha 855 -- and I could pick up a used one cheaper than a 30M.
I'm just not going to say that YOUR vintage instrument is "bad" out-of-hand. Hey, if it works for you, that's great. However, you might be completely won over by something newer -- if you get the chance to try it.
Oh. Remember when the Selmer Balanced Action came out: 1936. "Pre-1959 horn" can be cutting out a lot of nice stuff!
BTB, MartinMods, I think Gandalfe might also be referencing the new Eppelsheim-designed C soprano and its superiority to vintage -- 99.9% of C sopranos are pre-1941 vintage -- instruments. There are quite a few posts here about it.
Interesting. I don't know anything about them, really. I just heard the only (and first ever of any C soprano) video demo of the "E-R" horn I could find, played by the "R" half of the team, and he did not play it in tune by any "stretch" of the imagination. I could hear the new scale and resultant modern tone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l22AliWDb8
Then I listened to the only Conn C soprano (1921) video I could find, and, the reverb and effects aside, I much prefer the sweet singing sound of the Conn, the played intonation of which, was much better than that of the new ER, for my taste.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Js6AsLXnGE
Pete...
"Pretty"... It has to look pretty? Care to clarify that one? You don't mean to say that you'd discriminate against a horn with a killer sound just because it didn't look "pretty" to you, do you? You're not that superficial. Are you? ;-) If so, then my poor Zeph will never make your calendar... :cry: I guess its chances of being a pinup are dashed...
"Pretty"... It has to look pretty? Care to clarify that one? You don't mean to say that you'd discriminate against a horn with a killer sound just because it didn't look "pretty" to you, do you? You're not that superficial. Are you? ;-) If so, then my poor Zeph will never make your calendar... :cry: I guess its chances of being a pinup are dashed...